Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at carm. dot org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live.

Parentheses taking your calls and responding to your questions at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt Slick. All righty, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick live.

Today's date is eleven. Is um, oops, there we go. Oh, got that fixed. Hit the wrong button. All right, today's messed up.

Welcome to the show, Matt Slick live. And today's date's let's see, November eleventh. Twenty twenty six. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six, and I think that is it.

So you can also send me an email if you'd like to do that. Just send an email to info at karm dot org. Info at c a r m dot o r g, and put the subject line: "Radio comment" or "Radio question." Let's get to Ryan from Pennsylvania. Ryan. Welcome.

You're on the air. Hello. Hello. Hello. I was wanting to call.

I was wanting to know your insights or your opinion about why some forty million Americans have left Protestant churches in the last fifteen years. Where'd you get that documentation? That information? There's plenty of information. There's a place called Christian Archives.

There's a place called. Baylor University documenting the Southern Baptist. There's a number of different organizations that have documented this, and it's to the point where in 2026, almost 15,000 Protestant churches have closed just this year, and Protestant colleges and seminaries are either closing or merging, and Like the Southern Baptist is at its lowest membership since 1975, and like I say, there's they're losing about a thousand members a day this year, and so there's quite a bit of research about the number of people that have left Protestantism in the last 15 years. I was wanting to know your insight. Yeah, basically, it's from the book "The Great Dechurching" in two thousand and twenty-three, and it mentions that.

And what's really happening is people are just leaving. Churches a lot, and as far as Protestants go, there's some of the reasons listed are just life changes. They got hurt by a church, whatever situation, political issues, and they left.

Now, those are the sociological things. I would say that the reason they are is because they're moving to apostasy, as the Bible prophesies, and also another potential is that the Protestant church is being purified and being solidified to those who really. Believe and really are true, because a lot of people are leaving, and they leave for stupid reasons. And I would just say that if the Protestant churches are losing members, it doesn't mean Protestantism is true or false. It just means that there's a decrease, and there's a sociological and theological set of reasons why that would be the case.

And I would just say that it's part of the prophecy of Scripture that there's going to be apostasy. First John two nineteen says they went out from us because they never were of us. If they had been of us, they would have remained. And so I think personally, you and I have had lots of conversations in the past. But personally, I think that's.

Protestant churches just aren't doing their jobs. They're just they're mamby pamby theology, mamby pamby sermons, they're moralistic stupidity, and people are getting tired of it. And they don't really see any need to go because there's not really being helped theologically with any depth, with any connection to to a lot of things. I think there's a lot of problems there, and I've spoken about it many times. May I offer an opinion?

Sure. I think this is in line with what you're saying. We've talked about before that many in Protestantism have been emphasizing increase in numbers and increase in money as the priority of a successful ministry. And I think what has has transpired over the last probably forty years or so is that. They have been treating their congregations like customers and consumers rather than disciples.

I cannot disagree. I cannot disagree. You know, and like we've talked about before, sermons have become sales pitches. You know, and the denominations have become for-profit corporations, just like any other. And positions within the corporations.

Have become career positions rather than a calling, and they they have corporate ladders to be climbed, just like any other corporation. And I think people just got tired of it. And they, like you say, it was an endless supply of stuff they're trying to sell them when they go to church. And they're, like you say, they're being treated like consumers and customers rather than disciples. I'm not disagreeing with you.

Now I forgot your perspective. You're Catholic, right? Are you Catholic? No, I'm not. I'm a Protestant.

Okay, okay. Trying to remember because it's been a while. But any rate, my apologies.

Now it's coming back to me who you are more and more. Yeah, it's so we could talk about this quite a bit.

Someone called up a few weeks ago on the radio, and we were talking, commiserating about the sermons. And this guy said something. I went. That is it. That's exactly it.

And he said, "Yeah, I go to these churches and I hear these sermons. It's like the pastors are reading a newspaper article." And I went, "That's right." Yes. And and I was fact. In fact, literally last night, you know, I'm recovering from pneumonia, and finally I can have visitors. And and a guy came over.

We got talking about this. He doesn't want to go to church. And we got talked about why I don't like going to church. He doesn't like going to church.

Well, why? Because the sermons are mamby pamby, they're moralistic, and and it's like more people and more and more money is what makes success. And sermons are just newspaper readings. I went to a church here locally six eight um eight months ago. I walk into the church second service packed.

And I go in there and I sit down towards the back, and this guy gets up. I don't know who he is, first time there, and he starts talking about some event. Oh, he's giving a, he's doing announcements. Turns out it was the pastor giving a sermon. I didn't recognize it was even supposed to be a sermon for maybe five or ten minutes into it, and then it was just crap.

Seriously. They're more like they're more like TED talks than they are like a sermon. Yep. Oh man. See, I know you and I have disagreed in a lot of things, but man, you and I are just hitting it right here.

You're right. They're TED talks, and and you know why don't why don't they open the Word of God, preach out of the Word of God, almost put blinders on. And so all they can see is the is the word of God. They don't care about how many people are there. People are paying attention or not paying attention.

They don't care about that. They're just preaching the word with authority and with truth. That's what needs to happen. Oh man!

Well, and and this is something that you and I have talked about before. And Jordan Peterson has been big on this, and that is that call people to not just be consumers and customers. Call them to be disciples. To make a commitment to what it means to be a believer—that take up your cross and follow me—is a very, very serious decision to make. And rather than just sitting there and buying products, yep, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I am not disagreeing. You know, this guy he came over last night, named Joe, and he's a great guy. And we got talking, and he was telling me about a church that I was thinking about checking out more. And he spent some time with one of the pastors. Turns out they're dispensational, and that's okay, you know, dispensational.

And the pastor was urging him not to really go there because they're dispensational, and that because my friend is covenantal. And that it really wouldn't be a good fit, because everybody there has to be dispensational in order to be a church member. And I'm just looking at him like, "Are you serious? This is stupid. It's stupid stuff that that the Protestants are doing.

Stupid." Well, about a few years ago, I went to eleven different churches from eleven different denominations. And every single sermon from those eleven churches was either about money, about abortion, or political endorsements from the pulpit.

Okay, I got news for you. That gets old. That gets old. If all of them are doing the same thing, that's bad. Those topics are worth preaching about from the pulpit.

But you know, I remember Chuck Smith. You know, he passed away, and now Calvary Chapel's having problems. But nevertheless, Chuck Smith. I you know went to his church for years, and he was. I think I forgot where he was.

The Assemblies of God.

Some. I don't. I forgot. And they were supposed to preach certain sermons at certain times. And he made this comment.

He was talking about it to the congregation. I heard him say it straight. He said, "It dawned on him that he could just preach through the Bible. Let the Bible speak." And it was a new concept. Just let it speak, going verse by verse.

And that's what he did. And it exploded. Seventeen hundred Calvary chapels. And now they're having problems with women ordination and stuff. But yeah, oh man, I think I'm with you.

Calvary Chapel has closed many, many campuses in the last fifteen years. They've closed a lot of them. Yes, and there's a split that's occurred, and there's the CCA Calvary Chapel Association and Calvary Chapel Network, and I forgot which one are now ordaining women, and it's a sign of the apostasy.

So.

Well, you know, and and and you're right. You and I have had a lot of different disagreements on this, but I think we've seen a lot of the same sort of things as becoming trends. And um, and and again, it's like, um, you know, from my experience, it's um, it has been that the gospel of Christ has become a product to be bought and sold, just like any other price, and it's a means to an end. And the other end is either money and power.

Well, you know, I've I've said over the radio many times, if you want to mess something up, you just need two things: people and time. That's it. And even Calvary Chapel, which I used to recommend people go to because it was a safe, basic church, now is going through problems, disassociations, closing campuses or chapels, and there some of them are ordained women pastors now. There's two divisions: one affirms, one denies that. But yeah, it's just it's bad.

Well, I mean, Bill Hybels saw the writing on the wall at Willow Creek. I mean, there's innumerable examples of mega churches that you know they realized that they were they were not teaching people; they were just entertaining them, and you know. And after a while, the entertainment gets old. Yeah, you know. One of the things that I found, one of the things that I found also, and this was really astounding to me.

I did not know this until recently. That there were a number of churches across the nation in the last fifteen years that took out the hymnals out of their churches, and everything was either professional entertainment or on an overhead projector or something. I learned how to read music by reading from a hymnal. Wow! Wow!

Well, like you've got to be kidding! It's all you know. This is it. It's all just the attention on the. The entertainers and just entertaining people—it's like you've got to be kidding.

There's a whole lot more to it than just this, you know. You know, I went to a Calvary Chapel here a few months ago, and the the pastor was going to talk about on mill, pre mill, and post mill. And okay, good. Let's see how he, you know, talks about them. And the way he talked about millennialism was anyone who believes in it obviously doesn't take the Bible seriously.

And people were shaking their heads negatively the way he was presenting this. And I just got up and left. Because this kind of thing was unwarranted and caused a division in the body Christ. I went to another Calvary Chapel in an overflow room where the pastor was preaching moralistic sermons that you could have taken that exact same sermon put in a Mormon church unchanged and it would have been fine. Oh yeah, it's it's horrible stuff.

Yeah. You know, when I was doing, I've got a break coming up. I want to money and power.

Well, as a lot of it is, yeah.

Now I want to continue to talk about this race coming up. But back in Southern California for several years, maybe five years, I did pulpit supply, which means I would just drive to different churches, and I would fill the pulpit for a particular Sunday. And I did this, you know, for years.

Okay, now hold on, we got a break. I want to talk about this.

Something interesting kind of popped up with one of the.

Some of the stuff there. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Ryan and I disagree on many things. I've known we just, and but we we certainly agree with this. Hey, please stay tuned.

We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking a call at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt Slick. All righty, welcome back to the show.

If you want to give me a call, you can. It's eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Ryan, are you still there? Yes, I am. Thank you for letting me hang on.

Sure. So I was going to add that while I was doing pulpit supply, I still remember the day, the sermon, the place where I was preaching, and I decided to insert a doctrinal statement that was related to the sermon. And I did it for like thirty seconds. I gave out whatever doctrine it was, but I think with the deity of Christ, two natures, resurrected. He still is a man, still with those two natures.

And I went through because it was related to the topic. And when I got done with the sermon, people approached me and thanked me. Just for saying that doctrinal stuff, they said they never got that. I started doing it more and more pulpits in Southern California during those years. I preached at pulpit supply, and I got unsolicited comments.

Thanking me for doing that, and what it taught me was that a lot of the sermons are babysitting sermons. It's hammock theology, coochie coochie coo, a milquetoast theology, and they're not being fed. And this is—that's when I first started getting realizing that's the case. Um, another side of this, and this is something that I personally experienced. I was invited to a church to preach, not to preach, but to teach a adult Sunday school class about the cults.

I lived in Utah for eleven years, so I was really familiar with cultic teachings.

Well, I started out with U.C.B.S. and the list of cultic teachings that he talked about, and I went through the progression down through the centuries of different sort of cultic movements. Went through the great creeds, the purposes of the great creeds. And their role in in fighting cultic teachings, and the preacher, been to Bible school, been to seminary, had his masters in theology, and had been preaching for twenty five years, had never heard any of the things that I taught. Wow!

Wow! That's amazing. That's pretty astounding. I think. You know.

And you know, and and it's like, and same sort of thing, the solicited stuff. Wow, I never knew Mormons believed in more than one God. I never knew that Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, denied the deity of Christ. On and on, you know, Christian Science, and the just on and on. Like I say, I started with the list that Eusebius gives us of culting teachings.

You know, back in the second or third century. And and show how these things just kept repeating down through the centuries. Talked about the Campbellite restoration movement and where all the many of the current cults we have now and how they came about. And you know, and and it was like, wow, we never heard about this. And and it's like, really, you go to Bible college and seminary and you never study the history of the cults?

You gotta be kidding! This is. You know, elementary basic stuff, and they're they're being taught out of books like the Purpose Driven Church that you have to market and sell the gospel, like you would market and sell any other consumer item. And and consequently, you don't want to appear too negative.

So you know, don't talk about Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses because people have family members in those churches, and you don't want to drive them away from church. And all of a sudden, it's all about growth, it's all about money, and it's all about members. And again, it's like the body of Christ or the the gospel of Christ is a product to be bought and sold, just like any other product. There's a lot to that. There is a lot to that, and we could also talk about why the Eo Eastern Orthodox Roman Catholic churches are increasing.

Is because I think Protestants are moving over there to those false churches because they're dissatisfied with the manby pamby crud that's being taught in a lot of Protestant churches. You know, as we're talking, there's no doubt about that. Oh yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about it. I've talked to people. Very very stringent.

They have very stringent requirements for becoming a member in those churches. They're asking them to make a major commitment to their church. They're not getting that from Protestant churches. They're getting TED talks. Yeah, you know, every now and then, and this is one of the the nows.

Talking to somebody in the radio about this makes me want to start a church, just to preach the gospel, just to preach the truth, and say to people who attend, "I'm not concerned if you're here or not. I'm concerned if you listen to the word of God being spoken in truth. You need to listen to what God's word says." And here's the there's the doors over there. If you want to leave, that's fine. The idea of just preaching the truth of God and let God sort the people out, not a program, not an urge.

Not a recommendation, but the Word of God. Let it sort the people out, so that they will be attracted to God's preaching, and not to plans and practices and committees. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. And like you said, we've had a lot of disagreements about apologetics and so forth over the years. But I think that what we're both observing in this very much meshes in line with the reality of everything that's going on, and to me that makes a lot of sense as to why 40 million Americans have left churches.

Well, the Bible prophesies on apostasy. Personally, I think part of it is just what you said—that the gospel is a commodity to be packaged. And but I mean that very broadly. Make them feel comfortable in church. Have good music, good feelings, good this, good that, and don't preach in such a way that you might offend people, so they don't attend.

Because as you said when you opened up, that a lot of times churches they judge success by how much money is coming in and how many people are in attendance, and that's a false, a false standard. Yeah, I'm with you, man. I agree. I, I have many friends that are pastors and everything, and whenever they have their pastors meetings amongst their denominations, the younger pastors that are coming in, they're all asking the same thing: What's the best way to move up in this denomination? Is it be a fundamentalist?

Is it be an evangelical? Is it be liberal? Is it to be a charismatic? And they're just simply using it as a way to try to climb the denominational ladder. Just like anyone would climb, any other corporation.

Yeah, that would be a sign of apostasy of those individuals. I would think so. Yeah, I would agree. Yep. If that's what you're in there for, that's apostasy.

Yeah. Yep. All right.

Well, thank you very much. I appreciate you the discussion with us. Yeah, I did too, actually, Ryan. Really, yeah, it's uh, it's something I've been harping on for years. This this whole thing, yep.

So, I'm with you, brother.

Okay. All right.

Thanks again. God bless. All right.

Sorry. Let me cough. Hold on. For those of you don't know, I'm getting over pneumonia. Ain't got X-ray results today.

I still have pneumonia in one of the lungs, so getting through stuff. Let's get to Cindy from Ohio. Cindy, welcome. You're on the air. Hello.

Um, sorry to hear about you having pneumonia. I hope you're feeling a lot better. Oh yeah, feeling better. Just got this persistent cough, but I'm trying to control it while I'm on the air.

So, what do you got?

Okay. Um. How how would somebody be saved? Do they have to have faith, or do they pray the salvation prayer and ask for forgiveness?

Well, that's a good question, and we got a break, so hold on, and we'll talk about this after the break, okay, Cindy? All right.

Hey folks! Be right back after these messages. If you want to give me a call, the number is eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live taking a call at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. All right, let's get on with. Oh yeah, back with Cindy from Ohio.

Cindy, are you still there? Yes, I am. All right.

So you asked, we need what salvation to get grace or faith, or you were asking something like that. What was that again? What comes first? What comes first? Do you have to ask for forgiveness and get salvation, or does grace come first or faith?

Grace. Grace, you cannot come to Christ unless it is granted by the Father. John six sixty five. Jesus says in John six forty four. Yeah, that's what I thought.

In John six forty four, you cannot come to me unless the Father draws you.

So the work of God is always primary.

So it's always going to be Him first.

So grace is what comes first. Grace enables us to be convicted, to be able to believe. Jesus says in John six twenty nine, "This is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He sent." And Paul says in Philippians one twenty nine, "To you it has been granted to believe." So, we're granted the act of believing by God. It's His work that we believe.

So it's by His grace. A lot of false churches, or let's just say true churches with false understandings of this, might say it's up to you and your wisdom and your ability to simply believe in God, and then God's grace comes because of your your faith. And that's a false teaching. Doesn't mean they're not Christian, but it's a false teaching.

Okay. So you have to have, so you know that you have grace when you feel convicted.

Well, it's not having. You feel like you have to repent. No, you don't have grace. It's not a substance. It's not.

It's okay.

Okay. It's not a substance. It's not a thing that's put upon you, and you have some of it. It's not what grace is. It's the unmerited favor of God towards you, His intention, His work in your heart, in your life.

Okay. So, do you have? Are you born with that, or can you receive it as an adult? You're not born with grace. Grace is not a substance.

Okay. Well.

So does God grant it to you? He doesn't grant grace. How does He? It's not. It's not granted.

Grace is the the work of God in a good, positive way in your life, based on what's in Him, not what's in you. We as as people deserve damnation. God is gracious in that He convicts us of our sin. He's gracious in that He provided the Scriptures for us. He's gracious in that He appoints people to believe Acts thirteen forty eight.

That He grants that they have faith. Philippians one twenty nine. That they come to Christ. John six sixty five. These are the gracious, kind movements of God upon people who don't deserve it.

Okay. Okay. I think I got it. A lot of people think that grace is like a a stuff. You know, do I have grace?

Was it given to me? Do I have enough of it? Don't think like that. Grace isn't like that. The Roman Catholic Church, paragraph nineteen ninety nine of the Catechism, says grace is infused into your soul.

It's a substance. It's like a substance. No, it's God's favor, and that you don't deserve. That's grace. It comes from Him, and He's gracious to us all the time.

Okay, so does He have favor with everyone? Yes, everyone. There is a yes and no, but yes, he has favor with everyone. In Matthew five forty three through forty eight, he lets the sun and the wind, the rain, go upon everybody equally. On the just and the unjust.

Right now, saving gracious movement of God, the saving grace that we would say, where God's gracious movement saves them, is not everybody. It's only for those whom He grants it to.

Okay. So, what happens to the people that are good, but they don't have God's grace? There's no one good. Do they end up? There's no one good.

Yeah, Romans three ten eleven and twelve. There's none who do does good. No one seeks for God. All are sinners.

So no one is good. Nobody.

Okay. Not a single person is good except Jesus. See what a lot of people do is they judge truth by what they think and what they feel. Oh, you know the good people, right? There aren't any good people.

Biblically, we're talking about biblical doctrines here. There is no good people, right?

Now, on the human level, you know, you can have somebody helps a little old lady cross the street.

Well, that's a good thing; it's a good person, but that's not what we're the context of what we're talking about. The goodness and the grace of God are based in Him. We have no goodness in us. Most people who are Christians don't want to hear this; don't like it. That's because they don't understand what the Bible actually teaches.

Because a natural man cannot receive the things of God, they're foolishness to him. He does not receive them. First Corinthians two fourteen, the heart's desperately wicked, deceitful. No man can trust it. Jeremiah seventeen nine.

So we are not good. The standard of goodness is God. We're not good. But there are people on the human level. You know, they pay for somebody's meal and they help them across the street.

Those are good things, and we say that in a generic sense. Yeah, good person, but not in the biblical sense on the related to God.

So there's no one who who is good. Except Jesus, and because that's the standard. He is the standard of goodness, not us.

So what I try and do is get people to stop thinking with what I call Christian humanistic philosophy, and they think of of God and salvation and goodness and righteousness based on their feelings, their intuition, which is false. It's a false approach. I shouldn't do that.

Okay. Okay. All right.

Okay. So God's grace always has to come first. We are not good enough. We're not wise enough to come to Christ on our own. That's why Jesus says in John six sixty five, "You cannot come to me unless it has been granted to you from the Father." John six sixty.

So you can pray for somebody to receive grace. You can pray to to the Lord to ask Him to be gracious to someone. Yeah, yeah, no problem.

Okay. All right.

Yeah. All right.

Okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

Well, God bless, Adi.

Well, God bless you too, and I hope you feel better real soon. Yeah, I've been doing a lot of coughing, and I've just now figured out today how to get the mute everything mute on when I cough so people don't hear it.

So I am coughing. I got I've got another two to four weeks to recover from pneumonia, and still have some pneumonia.

So yeah, that's just what it is. You know, that's okay. Yeah, just just dealing with it.

Okay, well, God bless.

Okay. Well, God bless you. Thank you. You too. Thanks, buddy.

There I did cough again.

Sorry about that, folks. All right, let's get to Jack from North Carolina. Jack, welcome. You're on the air. Hello.

Thank you. My question is: a lot of times, Catholics, I think probably I primarily hear from. From Catholics, but I'm sure the Orthodox also have this understanding of like the relationship between church and scripture, and that the church can't be separated from scripture because the church is what brought us the New Testament specifically, but brought together, you know, the scriptures altogether. The Bible was was handed down through the Early church through the councils, and so therefore the church almost like has. I don't know if they would use the idea of like supersede scripture because it brought it scripture, but would definitely you need to have the the interpreting lens of scripture with the church since it was brought from the church.

I was curious, like how it seems like a very strong. Argument, so I'm just curious, like how how that's handled. Yeah, it's from the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox will will say that, and I've been told that many, many times. And it's because in their arrogance and in their pride, salvation is found in a church, church relation, church membership, and not in the personal work of Christ. In their prideful arrogance, they want to say their church is the true church.

Their church gave us the Bible. Their church has the authority to interpret it. And if you want salvation, you got to belong to their church. What they do is they replace Christ with their church because their church becomes the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody can get to God but through their church. This is antichrist teaching from both the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox churches.

All right.

Now, first of all, they didn't give us the Bible. They recognized the Christian Church, which is comprised of true believers, recognize God's word.

Now we're going to break, so we'll get back. We'll talk about this because this is really important, and we need to address this and expose the false teachings of these false churches, the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Be right back. Please stay tuned. You want to give me a call eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at eight seven seven two zero seven two two seven six. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show.

Let's hold on. My cough.

Sorry about that, Jack. Are you still there? I am. Yep. Okay.

Now. The church recognizes scripture; it didn't create it.

Now, this is important because when the East North of Doctor Roman Catholics talk about church, they mean an ecclesiastical body, with their officials, their apostolic succession, their authority, their buildings, their bishops. That's the true church, and they say this church goes back to the apostles, which it does not. And I can show you it doesn't. But they'll say. We, our church, gave you the Bible.

Therefore, we have authority over the Word of God to tell you what it means. There's no logical or biblical necessity to say that if someone gave us something like the Word of God, that it means that they have authority over it. First of all. In Romans three two, Paul the apostle says the Jews were given the oracles of God. God trusted them with the oracles of God.

The Jews rejected the apocryphal books. Said nope, they're not scripture. The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, because they claim to be the true church, each one of them they recognize and say that apocryphal books are scripture. But this is a problem. When they claim to have authority, then they start claiming what is and is not God's word.

They don't have that authority to do that. Then they want to claim they have apostolic authority, and then I take them to John, excuse me, Matthew ten, one through eight, where I I show them that the apostles had the authority given by Christ to be able to perform miracles, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, heal the sick on command. That's apostolic authority, and they don't practice this apostolic authority today. They don't do that. They don't have apostolic authority.

So there is lots of problems. I deal with this constantly with these heretics in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, because both of those churches, their official doctrines, will lead to eternal damnation.

Now the guy hung up, or lost. We lost his his connection. Either one. And what I'm telling you, folks, is true. What I'm saying is true.

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are not true Christian churches. They're apostate, false churches with false gospels and a false priesthood. They did not author the Bible. They are not the true original church. They are false churches.

Okay, I clearly say that I will die on that hill, and that's the way it is. I hope he just lost his connection. He can call back if he wants. He might have even been one of those members of those churches. I was going to ask him if he was, but we'll see.

Nancy from Utah, you're on here. Yes. Hi. Hi. Hi, Matt.

Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Yes, I can. Okay. Good.

Um. I love your show, by the way, and I do hope you feel better. But I had this question that's been bugging me forever. I have like ten friends that are summer pastors, just summer very spiritual that say they have this gift of tongues, and then I have one person out of all of them that's a pastor that says no, tongues no longer exist because the Bible's here.

So I just want to know what your thoughts were. Yeah, the latter argument is a very weak argument. It's out of First Corinthians eight, or First Corinthians thirteen. Let me go over it quickly.

Okay, I affirm personally, just so you know, I affirm that all the charismatic gifts are for today. The reason I do is because it says in First Corinthians one seven, so that you are not lacking in any gift. The word gift there in Greek is, charisma, charismatic, that you're not lacking any charismatic gift awaiting the the return of Christ. That's what it says.

Now, when you go to First Corinthians thirteen, this is the place where they're called cessationists. They will go here and say, when the Bible comes, that's when the the perfect arrives. I'll explain it here. I'll read the text. When the Bible is is completed, we don't need any more charismatic gifts.

Well, first of all, just because the Bible is completed doesn't mean we don't need charismatic gifts. It's a faulty argument, but this is what it says: For we know in part, we prophesy in part. When the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.

Well, the question is: What is the perfect? What's the perfect? Is it the Bible or the return of Christ? Because in First Corinthians one seven, it says you're not to lack any charismatic gift, waiting eagerly for the revelation, the apocalypse, the apocalypse, the return of Christ.

So Paul the apostle is relating the charismatic gifts with the return of Christ, and then in First Corinthians thirteen, when the perfect comes, the perfect Greek in Greek is from telos, and it means the completion of everything.

So it says, "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child. When I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then." Face to face, the word then, totte, in Greek, refers back to when the perfect comes. When the perfect comes, okay, okay, that's called the antecedent. The antecedent of then refers back to the perfect.

So when the perfect comes, we'll see face to face.

Well, I did a study on the word face to face in the Bible. It always means a personal encounter. Always.

Okay. It does not mean. It does not mean that when the Bible is completed, we're going to see God face to face. When Jesus comes back, we're going to see God face to face. That's how it works.

Also, now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.

Now, when the if the Bible is completed, that's how we're fully known. No. No. See, Jesus says in John te:n twenty seven My sheep hear my voice; I know them, I give eternal life to them. He says, I know them.

John or Matthew seven twenty two and twenty three Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy your name, perform many miracles, et cetera? He says, Get away from me! I never knew you. In Galatians four eight, when you did not know God, you served by nature those which are not God. But now that you've come to know God, or have been known by God.

And you come to serve the true and living God. The Bible teaches us a pattern. When it says we are known by God, it means we're saved. That's what the pattern is.

Okay, get away from me! I never knew you, Matthew seven twenty three.

So when he says we see now in a mirror dimly, but then when the perfect comes, face to face. That we see God face to face, face to face is personal encounter. Is that what happens in the Bible when it's completed? No. Now I know in part, but then I'll be known as I'm fully known when the return of Christ comes.

Everything's completed.

So I know this topic really well because of history. I lost a password over this issue. Believe it or not. And I definitely believe in the charismatic gifts.

Now, it doesn't mean that those who hold to the cessationist position are not Christians, as long as they don't cause division in the body Christ over it. But the idea of saying the perfect is the Bible doesn't fit the context, and it's an imposition of a theological idea into the text. It doesn't. It's not warranted.

Okay. Yeah, you know what? I think he's reading it when he says, "When that which is perfect comes," he's using the word "that" as an object, and that's when he's saying the word "that." And I don't know if that's part of everybody's version, but he's reading a Bible that. Right, oh, that's good.

Okay, it's incorrect. It's the word "the" in Greek, not "that." Okay, no. Oh, sorry about that.

Okay, that's good. It's the word "the." Okay, tau omicron in Greek, and it's not the word "that." So, it's incorrect.

Okay, now just because someone says they speak in tongues doesn't mean they do. A lot of people are faking stuff. But that's not the issue. The issue is, oh yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people. My late wife spoke in tongues.

I never have. I have a pastor friend, and occasionally we get together if we pray. He says, "Do you know?" Last time, one of the times, he said, "Do you mind if I speak in tongues while I don't care? Doesn't bother me any. You know, yeah, it's no big deal.

All right.

So God, it seems like all the tongues are the same. Yes." I don't know. It's confusing to me. Yep. Now, when I was going to Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith's church back in Southern California, I heard him say this from the pulpit.

I'll paraphrase it. Hold on one second. There we go. That's a cough.

Sorry about that. There was a a meeting of not official meeting, but I mean a church gathering. You know, they had a service, but it was midweek service. And a I forgot was a male or female. I forgot who.

A person got up and spoke in French, and then someone got up and interpreted the French into English, and it was a you know a good thing about the Lord and the church. Chuck said he knew that woman. That's right, it was a woman, and he said he knew she did not speak French. The one who got up and spoke French, she did not speak it. He knew her personally, and so this was a manifestation of a tongue.

I have no problem with that. There are stories. There's a book called Bruchko. Where a guy, I'll give the really short version, goes down to a tribe in the Columbia South America area, preaches, people get saved in the tribes, and the tribe that gets saved goes to another tribe to preach the gospel to them, but they were different languages, and the first tribe didn't understand this concept of different languages. He had been the missionary had been to both tribes and knew different languages.

They went and preached to them. And people got converted, and the missionary said, "How could you do that? You speak the same language." And they said, "We just told them the gospel; they understood it and they believed." Oh wow! Yeah, things happen, and we. Yeah, no, I agree.

In fact, First Corinthians fourteen says, "Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts; desire them." Oh, okay. Yeah, where was that at? First Corinthians fourteen, verse one.

Okay, I'll write that down.

Okay. All right.

Well, thank you. I really appreciate it. And then, if you don't mind, I have a friend. His name is Blake. If you could keep him in your prayers, he was supposed to die a couple weeks ago, and I've been praying hard.

Are you? Kidney and a liver, and he can't do dialysis right now because his blood pressure is very low, and so he's just slowly dying. And they thought he'd be dead by now, but I keep I keep praying, and I've been adding him to prayer list.

So his name is Blake. Is he Christian? Name, but he seems to know Jesus through AA because my husband finally gave up. Alcohol. We met him in AA, and through the book, it makes you find a higher power.

And my husband kind of showed him. Yeah, the AA organization is a bad one. It's not good. Christians shouldn't be involved with it. It's not good.

No, it it teaches a false god and things like that. But it doesn't mean though that God can't use it.

Okay, so so we have someone who's listening right now on the prayer team at Carm. And she will let people know, and they'll pray.

Okay, all right. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right.

We'll have the rest of a good night. You too. Thank you. God bless. Thank you.

Bye bye.

Okay. Bye. All right, folks. I got about one minute in the show. Just want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support.

And this particular time of the year has been very difficult for us financially, and we are quite low. And it's not a threat. It's not a you know woe is me. I'm just it's just informing the body of Christ. We have missionaries.

We have four missionaries that we support, and they preach and teach the gospel in their countries, in their languages, and go about and do this. It's one of the main things we support, and that's one of the. That's where most of our money goes. Actually, is to the missionaries.

So, if you'd consider supporting us, it's easy. All you got to do is go to karm. dot org, c a r m. dot o r g, and the top of the page you'll see the word donate, and you can set it up very easily. And you can also cancel whenever you want.

We just ask maybe ten dollars a month. Not much, and we're trying to get a thousand of these going, so that we can pay the missionaries without any problem, and we can have money to keep ourselves on the air as well. And so, just let you guys know. May the Lord bless you, and by His grace, we're back on there tomorrow. Lord willing, we'll talk to you then.

So, have a great evening, everyone. God bless. Another program powered by the Truth Network.