Hey, we just wanted to give you a heads up before you listen to this next program, because today's conversation on family life covers some pretty sensitive, oh yeah, but really important subjects that may not be suitable for younger ears.
So just use some discretion when listening to this next broadcast. And let me add this: and if you do listen with your kids, yeah, talk about it after with them. Right, this is an important conversation to have with maybe older kids. Just Depending on what you're thinking, but we just wanted to give you a heads up. In college, I was walking through this on the freedom journey.
Lived with five other girls, and we had our own place. And I had my own room. And I just got to the point where I was going to do anything to find healing. And so I took the doorknob off my door. My roommates were like, "Is the landlord going to be mad?
What are you doing? All this?" But you know what happened? The roommates didn't know that I what I was walking through. I told them all, and two of Them said they were struggling too, and we became this little group of three discipling each other, walking through this journey together. And now, I mean, they're some of my best friends.
Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson, and I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. We're going to go on another journey today with Dr.
Julie Slattery and Dr. Joyce Skarka. We're actually talking about women and shame and porn. That is not talked about, but we are going to go there, and it's going to be so helpful to you and maybe somebody you know.
So, as a fifth grader, I first saw porn, which that's the average age is eleven years old. Has it always been, Julie, that young, or has it gotten lower? I believe it's gotten lower in terms of the norm. Yeah, but yeah, you still will hear stories like I know you had shared and on a previous broadcast, like three or four. Oh, so.
If you don't get your own healing and address some of your own questions, you're not prepared for what might come out. When Anne and I got married, I knew about her sexual trauma. I had a perspective, and we were pretty new in Jesus, like less than two years, maybe a year and a half.
So my thought was, it's her past. The old's gone, the news come. It's done. I was that naive. Like it may have happened twenty years ago, but it's a new day, and it won't come into our marriage, or literally into our marriage bed.
Duh! I was so naive.
So when it did, I was like, "What? What?" That was so long ago. How so? I was so bad because I didn't want to walk through it with her. I just wanted her to get over it and we be good.
Or I be good. It was very selfish. I obviously learned. I actually read Wounded Heart, one of the first things I read by Dan Allender. Dan was on our weekend member speaker team, and he sort of handed it to me.
I think I handed it to you. And there's a chapter for the spouse, and I'm like, I guess I'm the spouse, and I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. How do we walk this?
So did. Zach, was he able to walk with you? What'd that look like? Because there's husbands listening. They're like, what do I do?
How do I how do I navigate? I think I was just as shocked and surprised that it impacted us.
So, yeah, because I just I did all the things. I went to counseling. I read all the books. We ran all the premarital pre engagement counseling. We did all the things.
So I was so shocked that it still impacted. But I mean, his love, his support, his encouragement, his pausing, asking good questions, never tried to be right, just Tried to be loving; those were the game changers, and kind of let me lead. Like if there was something that was triggering, I would just so much communication there of okay, that we can't do that, or let's pivot. I can remember coming home from seminary because we were both in seminary. We took counseling, a block of some seminary classes on therapy and counseling.
And that just stirred up the old things, and to me, I thought I had dealt with this. But abuse is very interesting because God goes in layers. I feel like He sometimes does it all at once, but many times, as we go through life, like there are different things that bring it up. But getting married triggers that. Triggers having kids.
I was that age when that happened. I remember coming home from class. When we are taking these classes and counseling, crying every single night. I thought I was over it. And I'm.
I don't cry very often, and that's when Dave was like, "What is happening?" Third year marriage, so we're we're newlyweds. And as Dave walked through that with me, and that's what I think is good for spouses to know: when we walk through something with our spouses, it creates an intimacy, and it's also. The gospel being lived and played out, like you see all of my woundedness, my brokenness, my trauma, and you're still choosing to love me, and that is the gospel. And I think I probably felt closer to you at that time than any other time, because it's miraculous that this person can love me. Is that you know?
As I'm thinking about naked and unashamed. Genesis two twenty five. Adam and Eve, leave, cleave. One flesh. I call it leave, cleave, weave, and they were naked and unashamed.
I don't know if we understand. Help us understand that.
Well, let me read your quote before you go into it, because you guys said you were not created for sex; you were created for intimacy, and that's why I think porn is just a bandaid to the real issue underneath the intimacy piece. You are trying to fix it by thinking you are fixing a sex piece, but no, you need that intimacy piece to be fully known and fully loved. That's The healing moment, like Anne, what you were talking about, walking through that trauma together—that third year of marriage—that's when you felt fully known and fully loved. Yeah, and I had never had that before, ever. And it's so healing.
And you use the word layers. There are layers of God revealing to even us what is true about us as we go through life, and as we're asking. The Holy Spirit to search us and to help us know God and to help us hear His voice. We learn more about ourselves, and that same thing is true in an intimate relationship. There's layers.
So true. Even when you're married for three years, you said that was a very profound moment. Yes, it was. But you know, your listeners know there's a lot more to your story. Layer after layer of.
Conflict and that you know, discovering a porn issue, and so many changes along the way with our bodies, with our emotions, with our thoughts, with our shame. It's a constant journey.
So you have the picture of what God created sexual intimacy to be like, where you literally have no clothes. There's nowhere to hide. But what a couple is meant to work through is: can you get there emotionally? Where you've got nothing to hide, and in reality, when we first get married, we have layers of "Oh, I can never tell him about this," and I don't want him to see this part of me, and I have to kind of fudge the truth here, and I'm going to be defensive if you ever ask me about this. Yeah, and it's the journey of pushing into all those defenses.
And allowing all those barriers over time to fall, so that you truly do know everything about each other, and you've forged an an intimate knowing that after you've been married for a while, it's like that's what it's like. Yeah, fully known, fully loved. Joy. What would it have been like? Like I'm thinking, there are probably listeners that have done this.
If you had never told your husband, or he had never read anything, or you hadn't written anything, what would you have been like in your marriage relationship? Had you never talked about that, and it was still a secret? And what a sad, sad marriage that would have been! I wouldn't have been able to feel like I could be my full self and be fully known, and you'd always be questioning the lies of, "Oh, does he really love me? Oh, if he knew that, maybe he wouldn't love me then." And oh yeah, that sounds like torture.
Being in that because I have people that will say to me, "Like I will never tell him," or I'll have women say, "If he has a problem with porn, I don't want to know." I understand. Like, who wants to know that? Right, nobody. It's scary, but it's worth it to feel that intimate knowing. That's it.
Like, I can look at Dave and think, I know everything, and it's ugly, and I still love him. Yeah, and I feel that.
So, what would you say to listeners that maybe have secrets? What would you both say to them?
Well, even talking to a single woman, because we get so many women who fill this group for our book. Most of them are single who sign up for that group, and I would say to them, they're even missing out on that community element. What do you mean, finding a friend that fully knows them and fully loves them? Because they're even afraid to tell their girlfriends these. How many women struggle with porn?
I know it's higher for men, but it's probably higher than we think for women. Do you know about a third of the visitors to adult sites are women? That's a lot. That's a lot, and that's not even taking into account, yeah, the women who are reading pornographic novels, erotica. That's become.
A real thing, spicy books. That's what they call them nowadays. Spicy books, and a lot of TV shows that are basically soft porn. Yeah, that we have watch parties as Christians, and I'll get together and eat snacks, and we're watching these scenes, and we think it's okay. Wow, but you don't know what the other girls sitting around this couch are struggling with.
Well, let me ask you. I had somebody come up to me at a conference, and she said, "Hey, my 15 year old daughter." Just said something when we had lunch today, and I don't know how to get my head around it. I'm like, oh, okay. What did she say? She said she was in a group of girls, and she said this girl said in the group nonchalantly, "I've never masturbated," and the rest of the group said, "Are you kidding?
That's all we do. Is this happening among young women now? That this is a norm." It is. Oh yeah. How can a mom talk about this in the early years with their daughters?
What's the early years? I don't know. Like when does it start? I think it probably starts nowadays. You know, in the toddler preschool years, where we're talking about our bodies and the purpose of our bodies and why God gave us certain parts of our bodies and naming those parts and.
You know, one thing that a lot of people don't want to talk about publicly, but I get women coming up and asking me all the time is every time I take off my my kid's diaper, their hand goes immediately to their genitals. Yeah, so I think it's even earlier, even pre-verbal, in terms of what are we teaching our kids about the value of their bodies, and there's a balance there. You know, you certainly don't want to shame, where it's like, "Oh, that part of your body's dirty or bad, or don't touch that." But you also want to teach them, even at young ages, that there's something unique and special about the parts of our bodies that we don't show everyone. And so, there's healthy conversations about privacy and inappropriate touch, and those sort of things that are helpful even at those very young ages. But you want even a child or a preschooler to.
Know that there's nothing wrong with their bodies, so I think it starts at that very basic level. But then, as they get older, again talking about the uniqueness of male and female, talking about the fact that God did create us as sexual people. Talking about marriage, how babies are made, and just that it's normal to be curious. It's normal, so it's like setting that groundwork, and then also having very open conversations, providing an environment where your kid can come ask questions. It's good.
Yeah, we see a lot of women come in our groups too, where there's a lot of child on child touch, and they have to work through that. Our number one viewed blog every year. Is masturbation a sin? What'd you What'd you say?
So first of all, we have to say that it's not mentioned in the Bible.
So then we have to look at all right, what principles do we see in the Bible that can apply to that question? And there are a few really important principles.
So one of them would be you shouldn't lust. Jesus said this clearly in Matthew chapter five that. You say committing adultery is wrong.
Well, if you're looking at a woman lustfully, you're committing adultery in your heart, and that would go for looking at men as well. And so, it's what's going on in your mind. Are you feeding those kinds of thoughts? Also, the scripture tells us, Paul tells us that nothing should master us. No, no pun intended here, but you should not be addicted anything.
Then I think it's really important to pivot and ask the question: What am I using this for? What's the deeper need that I need to address? Great questions. And we also have to talk about the fact that God created sex and the expression of our sexuality to be something that is shared within a marriage covenant between a husband and wife. And I think what is often more helpful for people is to say.
Don't think of this just as a sin issue, but as a maturity issue. When I'm talking about this issue, I like to talk about in terms of how do we mature out of it, because it's an immature expression of our sexuality. You've had a lot of people go through your course, and they've probably been brought into some freedom. It's so exciting. What are some of the things that they've said?
Some of the women, especially, have gone through this. What have been some of the things that you've heard?
So many cool testimonies, really. Like mothers and daughters have gone through it together. I love that. Whoa, that's been really fun. And I love we have a woman now who's about to lead a group this summer.
She was in my group, one of our pilot studies, and now she's about to lead a study this summer.
So that's been really cool to see God just work through their lives, and now they're able to lead. Groups, wow! You know, I am almost positive that our listeners have no idea how important they are to our program. I think you are right. Our prayer partners, and especially our financial partners—people who donate financially to Family Life today—make this program actually happen.
And your monthly gift. Really is changing the hearts and lives of families, not only here, but around the world. Yeah, we just want to say we would love for you to join and be a partner with us. You make this program happen. You are literally changing the world.
It's like I'm going to make sure that other people, even my neighbors down the streets, lives are changed because of this program. And if you'd like to jump in and join us and become a partner, all you have to do is go to familylife.today.com and click on the donate. Button right there, and you can start joining today. We would love to have you as a partner with us to change the world for Jesus. Join us.
All right, we got to get to the doorknob. I mean, I've heard many stories about resisting and overcoming. I've never heard of somebody going disradical. One time, I was on a Detroit Lions road trip, and I was going to go out to dinner with one of our guys. He's very well known now as a broadcaster.
I won't say his name. He wouldn't mind it, but I go down to his room because we all have our own rooms on the hotel, and I knock on the door, and nobody. Answers and I realize it's open. He like those lock thing. He left it.
So I walk in. I'm like, "Hey, dude, there's no way there. He's not there." And I'm like. Hey, you know it's like I checked everywhere, and so and you don't know me very well, but I decided.
Well, if he's not here, I'm going to TP his room.
So I totally papered his whole room. I just ran it all the way around the room, and then I found out he's in the lobby waiting for me to go out to dinner. I go down. I go, dude, your door was wide open. He goes, Oh yeah, I never lock my door on road trips.
I'm like, Why not? He goes, I don't want to struggle with porn. I want any teammate to walk in at any time, and that helps. I'm like, Way to go. But yours is more radical than that.
Very similar, yeah.
So in college, I was walking through this on the freedom journey. Lived with five other girls, and we had our own place, and I had my own room. And I just got to the point where I was going to do anything to find healing, and so I took the doorknob off my door. I mean, you got a screwdriver, and you went out and took it off. My roommates were like, "Is the landlord going to be mad?
What are you doing? All this?" But you know what happened. The roommates didn't know that I what I'd walking through. I told them all, and two of them said they were struggling too. Really?
And we became this little group of three, discipling each other, walking through this journey together. And now, I mean, they're some of my best friends. I love that. And I mean, to give you an idea of what's in this eight week study, so the first week is the problem of porn. We've talked about that a little.
Can God's love really be enough? That's a good one. A new vision for sexual wholeness, pursuing sexual integrity, and that's where your doorknob story comes in. Like you're fighting to make that happen. You'll do anything to get free from that.
Ditching lies and embracing truth. Stop trying so hard. Getting unstuck from shame, and when your story becomes a weapon, what's that? You know what, Anne? You read all those titles, and this book is still relevant to my life now.
As a widow walking through sexual integrity, I can take all these principles and apply them to where I'm at now. It's cool how God just redeems all of it, and it kind of goes back to the last chapter of the book where, for me, I. Found healing and purpose when I was able to use my story and talk about it to help other women because no one was talking about her.
Some people were, not enough. Yeah, to talk for women, and so I feel like God's going to do that again. It's what He does in my life is my theme. He just uses my stories and the pain I've walked through and my brokenness to help other people.
So that's how He redeems in my life. And in the book, we encourage other women. I use your story for His glory. And he can redeem your story and help set other women free through it. And I would add to that too.
Don't be surprised if there's some pushback to it, because I think Satan hates it when we bring our stuff into the light. I've shared this here before, but the first time I ever shared my story of abuse on a stage at church, it was very brief, but it was a story of redemption of how God has healed, He's still healing, and I had a woman who was older who came up to me and said, "You glorified Satan today." And nothing could have crushed me more than that. And I hid in my house. Like I will never talk about that again. And my friend who knew me really well, she knew that when I was hiding, I would stay in the house and not talk to anybody.
She's calling her. She's texting her. She comes to my house and knocks on the door and says, "I know you're hiding. I know what's happening." And so, thank God for. Michelle for for community, yeah, yeah.
But I realize she's like, you think that that lady's right? No, God wants you to share your story. That was you glorified Him today. You're going to set people free by sharing your story. And man, I've realized, and this is before the Me Too movement.
Nobody was sharing their stuff. I'm so glad, and my sister has gone through sexual abuse, and we both said one of the greatest things, acts of courage that we have ever, as you said, Dave, ever accomplished was sharing our stories. My sister even said I would go through it again to set other people free. That's how rich it is to see other people come out of their shame and walk in freedom in Christ. What are some steps we can take if somebody's listening and some things are triggering right now?
What would you say to them? Yeah, I would just encourage them to have some hope that freedom is possible because it's so easy to feel hopeless and to feel alone. To help them realize they are not alone in this, there are so many women who have journeyed before them, and freedom is possible on the other side. Hey, last question. I gotta add this, and maybe you've already said it, but if You're a person who has found freedom, and you've you've had victory in this area for let's say months, maybe even years, and then because this is so often, you fall back.
What do you say to that woman? The first two months after my husband's death, I called Julie. I said, "I don't think I'm going to survive this, Julie. You should just fire me now." So, step one, have a great mentor like Julie in the wings, ready for when trials hit. And step two, I remember Julie just said, "You take it day by day, decision by decision, step by step." And I wish I could see me now, back then.
You know, I mean, I still have far to go. But if I could see where I'm at today and have that hope when I was one month, two month post loss, it would have been a little easier.
So, hey, Joy, I want to pray for you when we're done and we get off the air. But I'm wondering if you would pray for our listeners. I'd love to. Oh God, we thank you that we get to have this conversation, and I just pray for the men and women listening, but especially my sisters who just feel so alone and are just stuck in shame, God, and don't believe that your love, your intimate love, is enough for them. God, I've been there, and it is a tough spot, and so I just pray that you would speak to them, God, you would meet them in their time with you, and just help them.
Fully believe that you are enough. No matter what their circumstances are, no matter what happens in their life, that your love is enough for them, God. And we just pray you'd give them courage, courage to share their story with a safe, trusted Christian woman, and that she would respond well in love. And we just pray you'd meet them in that conversation, God. And we thank you for the sisters who have gone before us and are on this journey, speaking light into this conversation.
We love you so.
So much, amen. Man, this has been so good and rich. Their book is called "Her Freedom Journey: A Guide Out of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy" by doctors Julie Slattery and Joyce Skarka. And you go to familylife.today.com and click on the link in the show notes and get this book. We want to hear from you.
You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise, reports, or whatever. All you have to do is go to speakpipe. dot com slash family life today. Again, that's speakpipe. dot com slash family life today, or get the link in the show notes.
Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating fifty years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
