This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. And we're just grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. And to learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Hi. The thing that delights God is not telling us how to behave.
He does do that for our good. what delights him. Is on terms of grace and grace alone welcoming us into his open arms through the merits of his son. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.
And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Welcome to Family Life Today. It's going to be a great day.
Dane Ortlood, the author of Gentle and Lowly, Pastor in Chicago, good friend. He and Stacey are amazing people. And today we're talking about heaven. He's written a book. About heaven, and don't we all have questions like what will heaven be like?
And we're gonna answer those questions today. Eden was the first temple, and God told Adam, work it and keep it.
Now, those are kind of bland English words: work and keep.
So, what? They're the same two Hebrew words that the priests are told to do with the tabernacle later in the Old Testament. Oh, I didn't know that. Work it and keep it. Adam was the first priest.
He had perfect communion with God and was meant to facilitate it for others. And his calling was to spread God's glory and make the entire planet Earth Eden, a temple, a place where God and humanity dwelt in perfect harmony.
Now, Adam and Eve sinned, God withdrew, and a wall went up. What is the rest of the Bible? From one perspective, it is simply a temple recovery project. The tabernacle had a bright, beautiful blue sky. It had a lampstand that looked like a flourishing tree.
Why? It's the tree of life. It was a little garden of Eden that they pack up and carry around. When you go into the tabernacle, you're meeting with God. You're doing what Adam and Eve got to do before they fell.
And then you get to Ezekiel, and the last nine chapters of Ezekiel are picturing this coming temple with a river flowing out of it. And it's lush and luxuriant. It's the Garden of Eden. I've never thought of that. Yeah, hang on.
Jesus shows up. And he shows up, and John 1 says, the word became flesh, and then it uses the word tabernacle. Yeah. Tabernacled among us. Jesus.
Was what Ezekiel was prophesying. Jesus was the garden, Jesus was the temple in the sense that he was where. The immortal and the mortal can connect yet again.
Now, the old temple, if you're a leper or you're sick or you're unclean, that temple says, get out. Jesus in the noon temple walks around, and if you're a leper or if you're unclean, he says, Get over here. And in the Old Testament, Clean plus unclean equals unclean. Then in Ephesians 2, Paul says, now hang on a minute. You all, Jesus is the cornerstone of the temple.
You all are living stones being built up. When you get united to Jesus Christ, We are part of the temple. What does that mean? It means we now have that full, perfect access that Adam had before the fall, that the high priest had just once a year. And so you get to the end of the Bible, book of Revelation, and it says, And I saw no temple.
Why not? Because what Adam was supposed to do has happened. The whole planet Earth has become a temple where the immortal and the mortal, the divine and the human are now connected in perfect fellowship because there's no more sin.
So that's the house of the Lord. I can't wait to get there. Talk about resurrection. We all know, John 11, Lazarus gets raised from the dead, right? Yep.
Jesus is told that Lazarus has died. He says, okay, I'm going to go help you guys out. Travels to see him. And Mary and Martha greet him: say, hey, you know, ah, you could have saved it. You could have been here and saved Lazarus from dying.
First of all, it's very poignant because when Jesus, it doesn't say he wept when he heard that Lazarus had died. The text says. when he saw the others weeping. He began to weep.
Now, he knows he's about to raise this guy and turn sorrow into joy, but he is so touched. He's such in such emotional solidarity with his friends, he starts crying.
So beautiful. He raises Lazarus. He says, Lazarus, wake up. Why does he use Lazarus' name? One theologian Speculates because if he hadn't used Lazarus's name, oh, the dead people would such is the power of Christ's voice.
Wow, so he says, No, just Lazarus, the rest of you, it's coming for now. Just Lazarus, wake up, rise. They say, Oh, do you want to do that? He's going to stink.
Well, he comes out. He is raised back to the kind of life he had. Back to the kind of body he had. If he had like a lower back pain right as he died, still get it, he woke back up into that.
Okay, in other words, he was raised to mortal, not immortal existence. Christ, at the end of John's Gospel, is raised to immortal existence.
So Jesus tells the people: if you read it closely, he says, Go and unwrap his um his face. Lazarus is so weak. And so mortal, still, he can't even get out of his funeral clothes. He has other people to do it. I suspect.
I may be wrong. That he shot Jesus a look of disappointment as that thing came off of his eyes. I wonder that, too. Jesus, what's going on here? Why'd you wake me back up into this?
The reason he raised Lazarus was as a foreshadowing of his own resurrection. And to show, I believe, the contrast between them. Because when Jesus was raised, it was not like Lazarus. It was to an immortal existence. It was to the life of the age to come.
Oh, this is awesome. Richard Gaffin, who's a theologian, he puts it this way: if the Apostle Paul were to walk into a theology conference, That's talking about last things, eschatology.
Okay. And there's a panel discussion going on. And Paul walks in and he says, Hey, can I join you guys at the mics? And it was a sure.
Well, let's do some QA with the Apostle Paul. And so, someone, someone says, hey, Paul, when is the final end time resurrection of the dead going to happen? When's it going to happen? Gaffin rightly says that what Paul would say is It's already begun. Because when Jesus walked out of his tomb, he was the first instance of what the three of us and every listener in Christ is going to experience.
The Bible uses the word firstfruits. What is that? Jesus in his risen state is the firstfruits. That means the first ingathering of one harvest. If he was raised, we will be.
Not with a Lazarus body back to mortal existence, but to an immortal existence. And don't you wonder, like, will we be an age? Like, what age will we be? A lot of people think that. What I suspect, and this is sanctified speculation, and you tell me what you think, is that we will be ageless.
So that if I'm having, if I'm with my grandson in the new earth, and I meet someone. They may momentarily mix up which is the grandfather and which is the grandson because they're going to be ageless. Lewis gets at this in his book, The Great Divorce, in a Beautiful Way. Aging is a result of the fall.
So I don't think we're all going to be like the exact age 19 or something like that. We simply age will have melted away. We will be who we were meant to be. Our vision at Family Life is every home a godly home, and we need your help to get there. And when you become a family life partner, your monthly support makes that vision actually possible.
Yeah, you'll get access to exclusive updates and events and the chance to join our partners-only online community. But more than that, you're helping change the future of families.
So the question is: will you come alongside us and alongside Families in Need? And you can go to FamilyLifetoday.com and read more about it and become a partner. Just click the donate button at the top. And again, you can go to FamilyLifetoday.com. How does um Understanding All that you've talked about today about heaven affects you as a talk husband, dad.
A father. Man. Can you apply it to the family? Can you apply it to marriage? And the space we sort of help people.
Thank you, Dave. Yeah, thank you for that. Love that question. There's so many directions we could go. You guys help me out here.
But with what mindset am I going through my fathering and husbanding? For example, If heaven is a thin and not a thick reality to me, if it's not something I'm like acutely aware of, then I am going to raise my kids with all kinds of pressure. And, um, I. I'm going to burden them down and I may not use these words. Because this is it.
Right, exactly, Ann. I will be sending the messaging to them. Don't screw this up. Or maybe I'll project onto them ways that I know I have failed. And I'm wanting them to succeed.
I see a lot of dads with athletics doing this where I live. But if I am aware of heaven and I'm teaching them about it, then they can go through life failing. It's okay. Just stumble your way forward. That's all right.
This life matters tremendously. Let's not understate it. Give your heart to the Lord. Trust in God. Leave brightness and glory and joy and beauty in your wake and how you treat other people.
Dignity. Yes. But It is preparation. It's a trailer for the movie. It's just the first page of the novel.
Of what we will experience forever.
So it's a freeing thing. And actually, it takes all that pressure off. Yeah, I mean, that's huge. I mean, not just for the parent, but I'm thinking all the kids that grow up in homes where they feel that pressure from mom or dad, and it's unwarranted. They shouldn't feel that.
And I get it. We're parents. We want them to be great. And if we've let that go in our own life, understanding we are, we started here, a saint, we are set apart. Nothing we do is going to get us into heaven is who we know.
If we can parent in that way, it changes everything. And if we have that eternal perspective, which we should all the time. I was just thinking about this yesterday. I thought, Lord, I was praying. I'm like, Lord, it feels like I still don't quite get it because I still worry, worry about my kids, worry about my grandkids.
I hate for them all to feel pain. I hate for them to all go through real trials. And I was thinking, if I really understood who Christ is and what He's done for us. Yeah. And that he's with us.
I don't think I would worry. I think I'm just like, Lord, there's a lot going on, but you have it. You do do it? Oh, yeah. I think we all do it because I'm thinking, what's my part?
You have a part, but what's my part? And I can't always distinguish that. But if I have eternity in mind, And I'm remembering what's ahead. I'm remembering the temple. Like that whole thing just blew my mind that he is with us, that he's tabernacled among us, that he's in me.
I can trust him for all of it because nothing is worrying him. Amen. And he's got so much in store. Yeah. Let's carry that a little further, guys.
I'm thinking of one application for parenting and one for marriage. One for parenting, you just touched on it, Ann, namely pain. What if one of the cards in our hand, one of the tools in our tool belt as dads and moms, when our kid is cut from the team or is sick? or whatever. is what if one of the things we say to them is, Isn't it going to be awesome in heaven?
And build in them at age four and nine, lifting them, helping them, coaching them into knowing this is not all there is, and leveraging their heartache and pain. Into a time of eternal non-heartache in age-appropriate language.
So we can leverage their pain. Application number one, application number two to marriage.
Okay, let's do this. Will there be marriage in heaven? The answer is no and yes. I've never heard and yes. Let's go.
I haven't either. Dane's gonna give us some new theology. It's a new one. In Matthew's Gospel, Jesus says. People are not given in marriage.
They do not marry nor are given in marriage, but they're like the angels. Right.
So, will there be weddings in heaven? No. No. I do believe that I will have A close relationship with my wife, a unique relationship eternally with my wife, as you two will. I believe every marriage in the Lord in Christ will experience that.
Okay. And if you've been married before. There won't be jealousy. Way to go, Ann. You just had to bring that up.
No, I'm just saying. Like if you're a widow and now you have two wives, like they're Totally. Totally, Anne. Awesome thought. Why does Jesus say, though, that there's no marriage in heaven?
The answer is. The How do you put it? The symbol has given way to reality, okay? Because the Bible, throughout the whole Bible, speaks of our being with Christ. as his bride.
being with the groom. Ephesians 5, Revelation, other places.
Okay. God created marriage to give us a picture of what salvation in Christ looks like.
Now, nothing weird or erotic or romantic here, but that for which marriage exists. we are all going to experience with Christ.
Okay. None of us are going to be like, oh, I wish I still had my marriage though. No, it was pointing to what we will be experiencing.
So every single person who is a Christian who dies, with a terrible heartache that they always wanted to be married. That's hard. That's really hard. We have men and women in our church for whom this is the case, they are not going to miss out. They are not going to miss out.
They will experience that for which marriage exists.
So that's why I say no and yes. Yeah, that's good. No, that's good. Back to the kids part. I know that When you talk about heaven with young kids, I've had multiple grandkids tell me, I can't wait to die, which puts this like, oh my goodness, what?
Because we've talked about heaven and it sounds so incredible to them that they're like, that's going to be amazing. I can't wait. They're not thinking about the fear of death. They get older and now you're like, oh, the reality. All they're thinking is, that's going to be unbelievable.
And I like that for them. There's this purity in them that's like, I get it. That's going to be amazing. And I think we as adults could have like That whole thing, but The whole like, but I'm afraid to die. Right.
That thing. It gets us. Totally agree. And we go through life and we're piling up scars and wounds. And I think, as an emotional defense mechanism, we get cynical and we withdraw that childlike wonder and longing.
It atrophies and we kind of close our heart off to that. What's the cynical part sound like, do you think? My life has been so full of pain, we think that heaven can't make up for it. Heaven will be kind of consolation prize. And we don't realize, no, no, no, no, no.
The Bible teaches very clearly As deep as your pain has gone that high. Will your beauty and joy rise? Because 2 Corinthians 4 says, our present afflictions are preparing for us. That one verb is a world of comfort. Preparing for us.
An eternal weight of glory that is beyond comparison.
So let's say a listener right now. They're just in a terrible heartache. Their marriage is just awful. Or they have a grown child who's just totally ghosting them and unfairly representing them, perhaps. The hope of heaven is.
You dear saint. As hard as this is, it is preparing, it is seeding. is investing in. What you will be in terms of solid brightness, joy, and glory forever. It's actually helping you out.
It doesn't mean we pursue misery. No. But we are comforted in that as hard as life. It's actually the paradigm is crucifixion to resurrection. Christ was crucified and was raised, and we in him experience that same paradigm: crucified, resurrected.
As deep as our sorrows go here, that high will our joy rise in the new earth. Yeah. We can't lose. Yeah, that's win-win.
So hopeful. It is win-win. Here's a question a lot of parents would ask. I know my mom would ask. I had a little brother die.
When I was seven, he was five. Is he in heaven? Will not the judge of all the earth do what is right? Genesis 20. Answer.
Yeah. I do believe based on the logic of Romans one. And how Paul traces his argument there. I do believe that all those who perish before they are at an age where they can consciously make a decision, and I think I'd put your brother in that category, Dave, are safe in the arms of Christ. But we do know.
That God will do what is right. He is not only fully divine in his sovereignty and fully divine and perfect in his love, but we sometimes leave this one off. He's fully divine and perfect in his wisdom, in his wisdom.
So in heaven, we will never say that was not fair. That was not right. I think about that even with miscarriages. Yeah. And I've talked to women that have had abortions.
They're carrying the consequences of that and the guilt. Even some women do. Not all, but some carry incredible guilt. I suspect Anne. My grandmother said this, my dad's mom, and I thought, that's kind of weird, but actually, I think she might be right.
That for that kind of situation, for a woman who is in Christ. who aborted her child. Grandmother said. She will be able to raise that child in the new earth. Or, if not, if that's going a little beyond what we know from scripture, okay, I yield.
But whatever the joy and experience of raising that child in the north would be, they will have. They will have because they will have perfect joy. They will be reunited with that little one.
So they will. They will be in heaven. I believe that. I do too, for sure. And that's a comfort in and of itself.
Yes. All right, last question. Yeah. Unless you get more. No, I don't.
What would you say to the listener who's like, I wanna go to heaven. Mm. I know if I am going to get in. And you keep saying in Christ. In Christ.
If you're in Christ, let's say. That's how the New Testament talks about being a Christian. The word Christian is used like two times in the New Testament. In Christ is about 200. This is the question of all questions: how do you get to heaven?
Answer. No you shouldn't be there. Heaven is filled with people saying, thinking, I deserve to be in hell. I love you. You put that at the epilogue.
It's filled with people thinking I deserve to be in hell and dancing. And dancing. Yeah. Hell is filled with people thinking, I deserve to be in heaven. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. It's the logic of grace. Grace cuts against the way we naturally think God works. The way you get to heaven is: the answer is you get there for free.
You say, I shouldn't be there. What you do is you say I deserve hell. I am Sinful. I've rebelled against God in ways I'm conscious of, in all kinds of ways I'm not conscious of. The reason that I'm not conscious of the many ways I deign continue to rebel against God is my rebellion.
My sinfulness makes it hard to feel my sinfulness.
So we say, God, I'm a mess. Can I please go? Yeah. Because of what Jesus did. Would you let me sort of trade places with him.
And God says I would be delighted to. That's what he loves to do. That's the number one thing on his job description, so to speak. The thing that delights God is not telling us how to behave. He does do that for our good.
what delights him. Is on terms of grace and grace alone, welcoming us into his open arms through the merits of his Son. Father and son, the Puritans would talk like this, in time immemorial, They they had this conversation. And they agreed together. that the sun would take on flesh and go to earth and live the life That Dane, Dave and Ann should have lived.
But we don't. And die the death. that Dane, Dave, and Ann should die. And no longer have to.
So that. Our death. Is a door, not a wall. It's a trampoline into paradise. Instead of a trapdoor into misery.
So you get it by free by saying, I don't deserve it, but Jesus does. Can I please go? There it is. And it's simple. I mean, I just simple.
I just did that. I'm just telling our grandkids about it, two of them in the back seat of my car, of kind of going through the prayer. Because I asked them, guys, how do you think you'll get to heaven? And those conversations are conversations we as parents, grandparents, if our kids allow us to have that discussion. That should just be a topic that's on our tongue.
I agree. And I think it's really important to allow them to know. It's for free. You don't have to do anything to get there. It's by the blood of Jesus.
Amen. Yeah, and I would just add: maybe today's your day. Maybe you're listening or watching and you heard what Dane just said. That's the gospel. Yes.
You can get on your knees, close your eyes, bow your head, or you can just drive in your car. You can be driving in your car. I had a guy come up to me once after a family life weekend to remember. It's our marriage getaway. And I was speaking on Saturday morning, we share the gospel.
Basically, it's a marriage conference that you come to that you realize it's really a Jesus conference. I'm going to tell you, you need Jesus. Love it.
So you share the gospel, and I ended, you know, with a. if you want to pray and this guy walks up and he goes, I just gave my life to Christ during that last session. I looked at him and I go. What do you mean I didn't I didn't share how to he goes, well, you did this morning. I go, yeah.
And he goes, I didn't then, but while you were talking now, he goes, I just literally said, while you were talking about sex, I think, I've been talking about intimacy. He goes, I literally just said, Jesus, I'm a sinner. I realize it now, and I need to repent. And I repent right here, and I'm giving you my life. I repent.
I'm going to follow you. He goes, I didn't close my eyes or bottom of my head, and maybe it didn't work. Did it work? I go, Yeah, dude, you're in.
So, you know, you think there's this magical thing. It's like, What you just said, and you admit that you're in Christ. Amen. Which means you're in heaven one day. Yes.
Dane, thanks. Man, what a conversation.
So good. Always a joy to talk to you. Thanks for watching. Thank you. Thanks for tackling a topic not many people's dive into and you've done a an incredible job of painting the picture.
It's exciting. You are most welcome. I needed it. And I can't wait to be there. Yeah.
Again, Dane's book is called Finally Home: The Christian Hope of Heaven, and you can get that by going to FamilyLifeToday.com and just click on the link in the show notes. I'll tell you what. A lot of people don't know this, but we're on YouTube. I love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you're watching YouTube.
And the next generation is probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it.
So you can do either or, but if you want to watch and enjoy it, youtube.com/slash family life. Just go to youtube.com slash family life. Or if you're a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in Family Life. One word. I put three words on there and it still worked: Family Life today.
Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry. celebrating fifty years of God's faithfulness as marriages grow stronger and families flourish in Him. Yeah.
