I think a lot of parents feel like I have no power. I keep trying to talk to my kid.
Well, you're anxiously pursuing them, trying to change them. That's eroding your power. Your power is in waiting. Your power is in being calm. Your power is being receiving and having something attractive.
This is how you have to play it. Otherwise, you just don't have any influence at all. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson, and I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday. dot com.
This is Family Life Today. All right, we got Jim Burns back in the studio to talk about when your adult child strays, but but listen to the subtitle: "Trading Heartache for Hope." And I know if you've walked through any kind of situation with an adult child that's maybe strayed or living a lifestyle, or just it's not going well with your kids in your home, this is going to be a great program to listen. And maybe you're in a blended situation, so we're bringing Ron Deal in, and he's going to bring some real insight to this conversation.
So, welcome, Ron and Jim, and let's go. You talked about a one-topic parent, yeah. What do you think of a no-topic parent? Here's what I mean: there's certain areas that we have realized with our adult kids at the dinner table, whatever. Don't bring it up.
We disagree. Why talk about it? In a lot of it's political or whatever. It's just like it's not worth it. And our kids are all different theologically too.
Yeah, they're all in different positions. No, no, and I'm not saying you can't have conflict and have a rich conversation. But we've realized, you know what? It doesn't end well. Oh, you're talking about Thanksgiving.
The Burns household, one of our daughters, who has a very different, you know, view than some of the others of us with the political things, and I said, "Hey, you guys, I think we need to have a no rule. It's a no politics conversation." That's what I'm saying at the dinner table, and you know what? And we haven't because we're going to agree to disagree, and we're going to respect each other. And in our family, we're going to have some of these these things, but it's not going to get in the way of our relationship. Right?
Yeah. I mean, it started in ours because I would always violate it. We hadn't really. Talked about it yet? And we have a daughter.
My oldest is forty now, and I don't know. They were over. This was years ago, and I just made some comment, and just looks at me like, "What in the world?" And I just realized, do not go there. Yeah, yeah. Why talk about it?
So there are certain topics. It's like I love you, and I think they know it too. It's like we don't need to talk about it. No, let's be father and son. No, no, I agree with you.
And by the way, politics is one of the major things that move in estrangement. As parents, I don't think it's worth us trying to convince them. But you don't understand. I mean, they actually voted for this person, or they voted for that person, and you kind of have to go. Does that really?
Matter, yeah. Hey, so let's bring Ron Deal in. You know, Ron, he directs our blended ministry here, and he's been listening to our conversation. And first thing I'd say is, Ron, welcome, and give us a thought or a question. I know the way you think, man.
You've probably got eighteen questions lined up. Yep, I got three pages of paper right here with questions. I bet you do. And you and Jim have met. You even had him on your podcast.
Yeah, Jim's one of my favorite. People in the world. He is a tremendous teacher, speaker, writer. Jim, it's good to see you again, and great to see you. I tell him every time.
I say when people walk up and they want to talk to me about step parenting, I just go two words: Ron Deal. Yeah, me too. I do the same thing.
So, what do you got, Ron?
Well, you know, I'm thinking a lot of different directions. I'm thinking about families, single parent homes, and blended family homes when kids are moving back and forth, and there's different influences on their faith and Values in different homes. I'm also thinking a little bit about for everybody some of the things you guys have been talking about. I love delight in your children, and yet for some people, delighting feels like permission for whatever it is that they're doing or endorsing.
So when delight equals enabling, then it's really hard to delight. You just you're back on I've got to help you change issue, and you're pursuing your child, but you're doing it. In an anxious, controlling sort of way, and obviously, you've already said that doesn't work. Here is a little nuance I'd love to hear more about. When t here is been conflict, back off, approach them gently, try to work towards them.
That Jim was just saying, move towards your children. Yes, I totally agree with that. But I think for a lot of people, the conflict or the hostility that you've had, the wars, the battles you've had over these issues in the past, has. Created a lot of water under that bridge, and so when you tiptoe back toward them, the other is not open, not receptive. They're afraid.
Here we go again. You know, you say you don't want to argue, but Dad, Mom, how long is it going to be before you bring this back up again? I think that's a really sticky situation. What would you suggest to people who are trying to navigate that?
Well, I don't think there's easy answers in terms of wait three days, have this conversation. You know, there's no magic wand. I'll tell you about a guy I know named Ron who took his son to a San Diego Padres game, a Angels game, a Dodgers game, Giants in Oakland, and they fished and they actually did a little surfing and they they just had a great. Week together, and he never brought it up. And he had it was his topic all the time, and because he didn't bring it up at the very end, it loosened his son up.
And his son said, "Dad, we probably need to." He brought it up. We probably need to talk about some of these feelings. And he said, "Well, I didn't need to. I just want you to know, I I couldn't be in relationship with you without doing this." And the son said, "But we need to kind of take care of this." And so the son actually took the lead at helping them kind of take care of business. And they kind of agreed on a couple things.
They didn't agree on a couple things. And he said, "I really appreciate your new approach." Yeah, the the son said this, and I think we can learn from that.
So is that sort of like building a trust? Yes, trust has been broken. You've got to rebuild that. Jim said it earlier. Safety is the number one thing that gives you influence with your children.
And at the end of the day, that's what you're hoping for. It's just a little influence. But if they don't feel safe with you, you don't have any influence. I think too, what helps me. Is and what has helped me with our kids is an apology, guys.
I, I've probably it's just my personality. I'm pretty intense, and I'm sure when I come in these conversations, it can feel like a lot. And I'm sorry for that. I love you guys. I believe in you.
I'm so intense, and that's gotta. Be off-putting at times, so let me just say, I don't want to do that. I am sorry that I've hurt you. Then you got to honor that. Yes, it can't be a week later and then she's back again.
Yeah. The other thing too, and I know you guys have all done this. We all have hard conversations with our kids. All of us. And when they bring something up, there are times that I can be thinking, "Are you kidding me?" You know, are you serious?
But then to say, not say any of that, bite my tongue, but to say, "Thank you." That couldn't have been easy to bring up, and I know that it probably took a lot of prayer and a lot of courage for you to bring that up. And I really appreciate that you'd be honest with me.
So thanks.
So I kind of like both of those starting out with that apology, but you're right, though, Ron. When you have wounded each other so immensely. You're both so gun shy. Like, oh, here it goes again. Right.
Yeah, and an option to add on to the apology, yeah, is to kind of take that moment to say, "Now, son or daughter, I'm at a loss. I don't know how we move forward, but because I love you like crazy, and I'm not going anywhere, and you're important to me, and your kids, I want to be granddad and." Let's figure out how we do this, and then let them talk. Maybe propose something, but you're what you're trying to get to is how now do we do life, and what do we expect of one another?
So, for example, it might be something like, "Hey, look, would it be fair if twice a year, you and I have a conversation about important eternal things, and we can decide when that's going to be? And you can tell me when you want, but all the other time is just being together and having fun. We don't have to worry about." Any of that, the reason you might try to negotiate towards something like that is you and your child both then know there's going to be times where we sort of revisit the delicate topics that are important, and yet you're creating safety in all the other moments of life, so nobody's going to feel ambushed or nobody's worried about oh well he's taking me the Padres game, but I know what's going to happen in the sixth inning. I know you know that just ruins the whole game, right?
So if you take away the anxiety of when we're together and just sort of compartmentalize a little, like I'm not saying that'll work with every child, but the point is you negotiate with them something they're comfortable with, you can both live with, and at least now we have a path forward. That's what I call being the adult in the room. We don't have to always be right. We're in it for the long, long wrong run, so we don't have to get it all settled. Then and to negotiate something like that, and they said, "I don't feel comfortable in, you know, having that conversation twice a year.
I don't have, I don't feel comfortable at all." Okay, yeah, maybe next year, but you are still keeping it in front of them. Yes, but that's being the adult in the room, Jim. As you say that, Ron, what I was hearing you say, tell me if I am wrong. Be the adult in the room, but also treat your son or daughter as an adult. Yes, yes, you know, like Ron, when you said that, I thought, wow, that's a great move for a parent to say.
You lead. What do you think? What do you think we should do? I'll tell you what. When I started dating Anne, and then we got married, the first thing that shocked me was her dad treated me as an adult man from day one.
He was my high school coach, and when he started doing that, like, hey, Dave, what's your thought on this? I am like. What? What do you mean? What's my thought?
I'm a kid, and I realized right away he did that with all these young men, and that was so respectful. We felt empowered.
So when you do that as a parent, I'm not always right.
Sometimes I'm wrong. What do you think? I think that says a lot to our children, and it really means that we need the discipline. And Paul said to Timothy, "Discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness." We need to discipline ourselves to reinvent the relationship because for two decades, yeah, we didn't ask them all that much what they thought. We said no, we're going here.
We're going to do this. You know, whatever. But as an adult, by reinventing The relationship it means that now we respect them, and they don't see respect if we're always giving our opinion on stuff. They they see it as they don't believe I'm really an adult.
So Jim, are you saying as to what Ron said that you would allow the child to navigate and initiate the two times a year? Like I can see people, especially that don't like conflict. Like I'm just going to make sure I'm not around you those two times whenever that's coming up.
So Thanksgiving and Christmas. Wrong, and I like what you said. Like, and if you can't have that conversation, I still want to be with you and love you. Yeah, and you can do some of that without words.
Okay. You could also, in your if that was going to be a negative conversation with your kids, then why not, you know, just in your own mind say, you know, I'm going to bring this up like twice, yeah, and kind of let it go. And but then we are in in charge. But you're sandwiching all of that with love and joy and fun and relationship. Yeah.
This sounds so easy. And yet, there is in most relationships. There is deep tension. There have been words said by everybody that was horrible. Yeah, it's making a pretty major change.
Then it takes time for them to kind of reboot. If you wouldn't go, oh, my parents aren't going to be the people who are going to always tell me how bad I am. Yeah. So it it takes. They need to see us do that over the long run.
Yes. And when they see that that we're even trying. And even and if we mess up, what I loved what you said and is you said then we just apologize. You know you can apologize for something and be right on other things. You know I'm sorry you felt that way.
I'm so grateful you told me that.
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Can I give you guys my favorite metaphor for that? I think just wraps up this whole conversation, and I hope our viewer listener can just sort of grab this and let this sink into your heart. Let's have a little fun. I'm going to invite the three of you. I'm going to give you a task.
I want you this afternoon to go to a city park somewhere and find some trees and some squirrels, and I want you to make friends with a squirrel. That's your goal. Befriend a squirrel.
Now tell me. How will you not go about befriending a squirrel? I wouldn't yell. Thank you, Dave. What would you not do?
I'd be very cautious. I would not move quickly. Just tenderly.
Softly approach. Approach. Yeah, squirrels are skittish, and they are just super afraid. And you may not understand why squirrels are skittish. I mean, when you're driving down the road and they run out and look at you and go back and forth, you're like, "What are you doing?" Like, we don't understand squirrels.
But your adult child is a squirrel for whatever reason, whatever the backstory is. They are super afraid of what you're coming with. And the irony is, we think pursuing, throwing. Criticisms, rocks, somehow trapping them is somehow advantageous to changing their heart. The whole political, social media world to me is crazy, trying to influence other people.
When all we're doing is trying to trap them in something and go ha ha ha, that doesn't invite squirrels to move towards you. That just makes them run up the tree faster. This is where you find yourself as a parent with a child who has strayed, and you have to say, "I can't do that anymore." All right, so let's turn it over. What would you do if you're trying to befriend? Remember, not trap, befriend a squirrel.
Dave and I got an opportunity to be in London this summer. Dave did a wedding over in France. Our guide, this English gentleman. I didn't realize it at first, but this squirrel kept coming to his feet. What's the squirrel doing?
He's right beside the guy Hyde Park, and I looked, and the guy had a little peanut in his hand. Yeah, just bend down very slowly, and the squirrel ate out of his hand. Amazing!
So, what's he doing? He's sitting still. He's got something attractive, and he's not doing anything harsh. This is amazing to you that a squirrel would move toward this guy. Like, how long did he have to sit quietly and calmly and be a stable force that doesn't bring any threat?
I mean, depending on the skittishness of the squirrel, you may have to sit a really long time in the park. That's what you have to do, and that is your power. I think a lot of parents feel like I have no power. I keep trying to talk to my kid.
Well, you're anxiously pursuing them, trying to change them. That's eroding your. Power. Your power is in waiting. Your power is in being calm.
Your power is being receiving and having something attractive. If you're not attractive, don't expect the squirrel to care about what you value.
So you you get the metaphor right. It's a hard, difficult road when this is where you find yourself, and yet this is how you have to play it. Otherwise, you just don't have any influence at all. In some ways, and you know, we know this as communicators. People don't receive the message unless they like the messenger.
It's the same thing. If they don't like you or they don't feel like you like them, it's going to be a hard road. You got to be likable. Yeah, and you know we can extend this little metaphor into complex family situations.
So I'm thinking about a. A step parent or a foster parent who you know this child is relatively new to your world and your life, and you're running into the park, going, "Hey, I got great stuff! Come here! Wait, where are you going?" You know, and you don't realize it, but you're chasing the squirrel with your eagerness, with your desire, and for whatever reason, is that too is threatening to the squirrel? Or maybe after going through a divorce, you kind of grew some distance between you and your children.
Yeah, they come for visitation twice a month, whatever. But you haven't really been super engaged in their life. But now you're seeing some things in their life, and you want to influence that.
So you begin to try to reengage.
Well, to them, you're still a little threatening. You're an unknown force in their world. Like you, again, have to go to the park near them as close as you can be and wait, and just hang out and don't quit. It can be so discouraging when you're not getting immediate results from the squirrel, but. This is what you do.
This is your power: is to sit and wait, and be that attractive presence that gives them something to move toward.
Well, Ron and Jim, I'm curious because I love that, but I'm thinking of a step parent, a new husband that walks into the situation. They're newly married. And his wife has a son that has strayed and is hurting her. She's crying every night about this child that has strayed, and he's thinking this child is being disrespectful, dishonoring. Yeah, it's hurting my wife, and so he's thinking I need to protect her.
How do you address that situation? Because what he's feeling is probably. Legitimate, like she is being hurt. Maybe the child is being horrible to her. But that's a hard place to tread.
It is, and add to it if he has his own children, and this stepchild is influencing his biological children. You know, right there in the home, there's a negative influence towards their faith formation. Right, it just adds, you know, insult to the injury.
So we would go back to all right. He and his wife got to get together. They got to have huddle and talk and try to figure out how they're going to respond within their home, and it's delicate. Because mom's going to say you don't know my kid, Lily. I know my kid, and you're coming in.
Pretty harsh, buddy. You know, or pretty aggressive, and that's not going to play well. And so then the stepdad's going, yeah, but you're going soft, and that's just letting him get away with it. And that I guarantee you, that happens a lot. Oh yeah.
Oh. And so it is a dialogue to figure out how we are going to respond. We're going to try to encourage biological mom because she has the most influence. This comes down to influence. It always does.
Who has the most influence?
So she's going to because she has a relationship with her son. The step. Dad doesn't at that point in time, and so we're going to encourage mom to put on some strength and maybe have to learn to step in in some ways that she is not just to say, "I'm sorry, you're not going to treat me that way in my home." I love you, son, but we're not going to do that. You know, she's going to have to maybe find some new skills. Her husband is supporting her as she's trying to do that, grow into that space.
It's going to be awkward and challenging, and she's not going to get it right. They're going to back up, and they're going to try again. Like that's going to be that journey for the most part, I would think. But at the end of the day, that's what they're looking for: is that delicate balance to move toward the sun, remain delight in Him when they can, how they can, and at the same time. Draw some lines and say nope, that's not happening either.
But that doesn't mean you can't be here. We don't love you and we don't receive you. That's the hope. The hard, super hard is when that kid says, "Well, I've got dad's house to go to, and so I'm just sayonara," and they pull on that string of. Ultimate leverage with another household that they can run to, and let me just say, in our at Family Life Blended, we deal with this a lot, and it is a very, very difficult situation.
And when kids do that, they do have some power because of that ability to go to the other home, who won't draw any lines, won't set up any boundaries, and has no expectations. And that is a power move. That it is a grieving moment for mom and stepdad, and yet even then. Back to our metaphor, they're going to try to figure out ways to be in the park with that boy.
However, whenever at his football game, whatever he's interested, however they can be as close to him as they can be, because that's the only way you have any influence. Yeah, I'm thinking of two words: protect and honor. I think that the husband has to protect his wife and honor her wishes. I mean, I can't say enough about when he just says. The husband should help the wife because she's the biological mom to this.
So the husband has to help the wife gain the tools or whatever it needs. And you will have to build boundaries. And if you build boundaries, boundaries aren't building walls. Boundaries are helping you build the relationship right.
So that's good. And so I haven't heard that before.
So when you build a boundary, it's not a fence. It's not a wall. The boundary is actually a vehicle. It's more like a bridge. To what's the bridge?
So it is delicate. And again, it's not always easy, but I think way too often in a blended family, and I think way too often the non-biological parent tries to take over because they're fed up with it or whatever, and protect. Yeah, right. What they really want to do is protect and honor, but honor the relationship that the mom has with that child. That's good.
And again, you got to be in it for the long haul. Yeah, if I could tag on with boundaries just for a second, a lot of people are saying boundaries are they're setting boundaries, and really what they're trying to do is change somebody else. When a child says, "I'm cutting you off," what they're really saying is, "Until mom, dad, you guys start doing what I want you to do, I'm going to remove myself from your presence." That's not what boundaries are for. Boundaries are me saying what I'm going to do with what is mine. I'm not telling you what to do with what is yours.
I'm just telling you what I'm going to do with mine, and that's so important in these situations because you can imagine this biological mom who the child is disrespecting her.
So, what is the boundary she's going to set? It's to say, "I'm sorry, you may not talk to me that way." She's not trying to demand of her child that he treat her exactly the way she wants. That's Too much for that little moment with that particular child for her to say no. You may not talk to me that way, and so the answer is no to what you were just demanding. And if you want to have a conversation about.
Go into the party. We can have a conversation, but but you're not going to treat me that way and get what you want.
So all she's saying is, yeah, I'm in charge of me and what is mine to do with, and that's the power that you have in these. It's not a lot of power. It doesn't feel like a lot because you're not changing them. This is where we as parents have to make that delineation between what's ours and what's theirs to figure out. I tell you what.
All I'm thinking about my my head right now are squirrels, squirrels, squirrel, squirrel. Actually, Ron's metaphor visual is really good, really good. And I think that we can all get at that in our heads, especially with the holidays coming up. Like, don't scare away the squirrel. That's your son or your daughter.
Again, the book is called "When Your Adult Child Strays" by Jim Burns. You can get it familylife.today.com. Just click on the link in the show notes, and guess what? We have another day. With Ron and Jim to talk about this topic, so we'll see you tomorrow.
If you need more on this or any kind of parenting help, you can get more at familylife dot com slash parenting help. It's going to be a benefit to you because we all need some help. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating fifty years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
