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Now let's jump in. We know that every sin makes us equally guilty in the eyes of God. But come on, some sins have to be worse than others, right? That's today's conversation on the Clear Read Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're so glad you're joining us for today's conversation with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah. Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to see you.
This is a question that I think people have. People, I've never heard Christians really widely disagree on this, but it's just one of those things that seems like common sense that people want. To hear an answer to, and that is: are there various degrees of sin? If I lie to Ryan, like, hey, I drank his Coke out of the fridge, right? And I lied.
And then if I go out there and murder somebody. Clearly, that's got to be different, right? Clearly, that's got to be different, right? Short answer. Legally, there is no difference.
But as in consequences Vast differences, even before God. Even before God. Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha.
I think we reduced that so many times. Probably because we don't have a true understanding of sin and how sin affects our relationship with God and really the eternality of our sin. But, you know, we reduce it to sin is sin in God's eyes. It doesn't matter if you do this, it doesn't matter if you do that. Everything is guilty before God.
And like you said, there's a sense in which that's true, but that's very reductionist. Typically, when people say that, sin is sin. is because there is something that they have done That they are saying You know, my sin is no graver, if I can say that, than your sin. It is just equal. God hates all sins equally.
And So my sin is no worse than yours. And Yes. You could say that, in a sense, for every single sin. Jesus came to die for us, and even one tiny speck of sin. can condemn us to hell.
They're absolutely right. But When it comes to consequences, there's a vast difference. I think you get a perfect example of taking someone's food and eating it. Yeah, it will. Disrupt that relationship.
Can I be honest with you? I did that this morning. You did that in Smiley. Your sister Libna has a bunch of these like fruity sodas in the fridge. You took one out of it.
She caught me. She caught me doing it. And were there consequences to that action? She's not happy. There weren't severe consequences, but she's definitely in a mood now.
So you may have to deal with that more. Great. Fantastic. But no, I see exactly what you're saying. The consequences are vastly different.
I think a lot of times also Christians will use it like it's. We we make this disparity of like sin is sin. And they're all the same. Yes, to minimize the sins that we've committed, but I've also seen Christians. Use it to legitimize.
other people like so for instance a lot of times like christians on the line that will debate homosexuals And they'll say, listen, you know, is what you're doing a sin? Yes, it absolutely is. But all sin is sin.
So I'm just as guilty for telling a white lie as you are for acting on homosexual urges and committing that. And what they're doing is they're saying, look, We're all the same. Your sin is no different. It's no, and it's a fallacy. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. It is. Legally, yeah. I mean, you could say there are no degrees. Homosexuality, adultery.
Stealing, murdering somebody's reputation, or murdering somebody. It may seem like, oh, there are various levels of sin. No, this sin is sin. But as in consequences, as the Word of God tells us, vast differences. That's right.
So if we back up, look at a couple of references. Legally, there are no degrees of sin. Romans 5:16 says, For the judgment which came from one offense, Resulted in condemnation. Judgment, which came from one offense, resulted in condemnation. Adam and Eve did not do many sins, they did one sin, and that was.
ate of that fruit. Of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they ate. That's all they did. You may think, well, that's not a big deal. They just ate It fruit that God said don't eat.
There are plenty other fruits. Or yeah, okay, now don't do that again. No, just that one offense resulted in condemnation. That was a done deal. Can you explain why?
Maybe listeners at home are sort of. Confused, and maybe they're new to the Christian faith. Why is it that one sin? Has such wide-reaching consequences. And for us, even why, why one sin is so, there's so much guilt, there's so much weight associated with just sinning once.
You just messed up one time. Yeah, particularly with that sin, because the next sin that's committed is actually cold-blooded murder. Yeah. This first one is disobeying God. Like, I've disobeyed people before, and the consequences are wildly lesser than if I were to murder someone.
But that first sin, what was it about it that caused all of this? But before I answer that, just a quick clarification. Not sure. if the second sin was murder. That came Later.
Later. I got you.
Okay. Adam and Eve. Left the Garden of Eden. I'm sure there were plenty of crosswords between each other. I'm sure there were misunderstandings and.
ugliness and gossip. Sure, when The human race began through them and began to multiply. People ask: what age were Cain and Abel? Were they like teenagers? Were they in their 30s, in their 40s?
Well, sometime back, I did a series, and I tried to explain that that these were not young. Adults. I believe probably in the 50s, 60s. They were they were up in age because you know, when Cain's judgment comes, He he asks for Some kind of grace. Because everyone who knows me will kill me or want to kill me.
Now, here's the question: if that's the case. Who is everyone? Yeah. If it's simply Adam and Eve can enable. Who is he scared of?
Who's he scared of?
Well, he's thinking ahead. No, no, he's. He has to run away to a land. Yeah, he's living in a world populated with other people. Right.
Where did the people come from?
Well, they came from only two individuals: Adam and Eve. Right. And they had children and their children married each other? You say, Well, that's kind of gross, that's incest. The gene pool was quite fresh in those early years.
Down the road God said That's Not right, that's not going to happen.
So incest became sin. But in those early years, yes, brothers married sisters, right? Or men married their sisters, or women married their brothers, or cousins. Lots of that was happening, and they were multiplying. You've also talked about this too, but biologically, Adam and Eve were like.
The apex of humanity. They were the peak, the pinnacle. They were perfect humans. Even after the fall, they were like peak human specimens.
So that gene pool, just like you said, is fresh. You don't have the pollution of various other genes and mutations and things that have happened throughout the century. That can lead to problems in biological growth and things like that.
So, yeah, absolutely.
So, Adam and Eve. First sin, definitely, but the second sin may not have been murder. Yeah. They mention murder because that I believe in that family the the seed of the woman was supposed to be The skull you know, Crusher, the one who would bruise the head of the serpent. But here's what you find is Yeah.
One of them kills his own brother. He doesn't kill Satan, he kills his own brother, and the brother is dead. And then, this one, you're no longer the seed crusher or skull crusher.
So then comes Seth, and the lineage continues.
So just to clarify that. Gotcha. But going back, why is this one sin so much weightier than any other? And I think it's It's a simple answer. Because God told them not to do this.
He left that choice there. They were not robots. They were not mechanical beings who were programmed to do certain things. They were given a choice obey me And live forever. Mm-hmm.
Eat of The tree of life. But if you t eat of the sweet and knowledge of Grenevo, You're disobeying me. Don't do that.
So that option, that choice. to obey God or disobey God. That I think was so grave. Yeah. Because there was no sin.
That first disobedience, that first infraction. And then from there, we get the rippling effects of sin throughout generations. Dr. Shaw, for us, for the person who says, Well, you know, I haven't done anything major in my life. I haven't done, you know, I'm not out there murdering people.
I'm not out there stealing things. I'm not a chronic criminal. Maybe there's just one little infraction here and there, one little act of disobedience. Why eternal consequences? I mean, because we don't understand the holiness of God.
God is so holy. to even allow one particle of sin to exist in the universe, Would be to compromise his holiness. To compromise his holiness is to compromise his most fundamental attribute. if his most fundamental attribute is compromised, The entire godhead Collapses. Yeah.
We think it's a matter of justice. And it is a matter of godly justice, but we think it's a matter of like human justice. I told a lie. I had an impure thought. That means I'm going to hell forever and ever.
Well, that's not just, but it's a matter of holiness. Yeah. First. Yeah, we think in terms of scales, but that's not really how the system is. Yeah.
God is holy. And I've given those illustrations before, and I'm sure you have heard other pastors and Bible teachers share that illustration. Imagine a beautiful white tablecloth. And Especially if your wife or even you are very particular about How the tablecloth needs to be spotless. And if that one little speck of gravy or sauce just kind of You know.
Jumps out and Next thing you know, there's a spot on the on on the Tablecloth. I mean, for a lot of people, that's pretty much. Oh, we gotta wash it. That's gotta wash it. We're base the whole thing.
Yeah. Do away with it.
So, also, I mean, imagine that magnified. Trillions and trillions of times, that's how it is, that one disobedience. To a holy and righteous God. Yeah, I like the way you said it, is that a lot of times we think like this because we just simply don't understand. The holiness of God.
We don't understand how holy he is and how his holiness functions. And we did a series when we first, or we did an episode, I should say, when we first started this about God's holiness.
So I encourage you guys to go back and listen to it because it's going to help you put this context, this conversation of sin into its proper context. Yeah, it does help to remember that our perspective and our scales, really our standard are low. Our standard of justice, our standard of holiness is much lower than God's because we're not by nature holy.
Now, we can be made holier by the presence of Christ in us. We can become more Christ-like, but we'll never be holy like God is holy. And that is our standard is by nature lower. Yes. And that is essentially what we're doing when we talk about this.
Well, I don't think this sin is worthy of eternal punishment. What I'm doing is I'm becoming the judge. I'm putting myself in the judge's seat and saying, this is what justice is. God doesn't fit in this definition that I've made. And so we got a big problem here.
Yeah, that's right. And you can't, and I think, Dr. Shell, what we've talked about here in this series is that you just can't put God into your. Definition. To switch the conversation a little bit, consequences.
Yes, there are consequences. Based on the nature of that sin. Not legally, no difference. Consequences, yes, and there are m many references. Multiple passages that talk about that.
Let's start with Jesus. In John chapter nineteen, verse eleven, Jesus answered, you could have no power at all against me unless It had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered me to you has the greater sin. Greater.
So there's a there's a level here. There's a hierarchy here. He's talking to the chief priests, the scribes, the soldiers, Pilate, all of them. Yeah, you are guilty. You're guilty for the decision you're about to make.
To crucify me. but the one who just betrayed me to you, having walked with me for three and a half years? And have Seen the miracles. Read. The b Food that I miraculously brought before the people and also took part of the communion, he did all those things and then heard the words of life.
He heard the words of life, and yet he betrayed me. He has the greater sin. He has. Can imagine the Day of Judgment. When the books are open, we believers are not going to have to stand for that judgment.
That judgment happens in this life. We can take care of it now. It's like. You know, in some places when you go, you can get that ticket beforehand. you can register beforehand.
That way you don't have to stand in line. On the day of judgment, we as believers don't have to stand in line. Because if we have to stand in line, which means our salvation is still not secure, And you'd be surprised the kind of people who actually believe that. There are people you may think, oh, if you come from a reform perspective where you believe in eternal security, then you will not believe that. No, there are people even in the reformed eternal security holding camp.
Have this idea that, yes, but then my works will ultimately vindicate me before God. Ooh. Yikes. What's the difference between you and me? And Armenian theology at that point.
Because that's what they're waiting on, too. That hope I make it. And then you're saying the same thing. Yeah, everything is ready, but that one element. But on the last day of judgment, it's going to be brought in.
The angels will bring in and say, Yep, yep, you're in. You still got to wait on the final word. Thank you, Lord. That is, yes, yes, yes. And that's why people ask me: you know, are you Calvinist or Armenian?
And I said, neither. Mm-hmm. And I believe in eternal security, actually. I just love to watch it, to imagine people's puzzle phase: like, what do you mean neither? You got to pick one.
No, you don't. You got to be in one of those camps. You're one or the other. You can't be neither. Losing salvation is not a biblical theology.
No matter how good your denomination is, how good your pastor is, how friendly your church is, how much you love that worship song. Losing theology, losing salvation is a losing theology. Yeah, you can't lose your theology either. But I know exactly what you mean. You know, a lot of people, I think, would hear something like that and say, you know, and I like the way you said that too.
A lot of people would hear that and be like, Well, people don't surely believe that. Like, if you're like, especially reform people, they wouldn't surely believe that there's still one last thing I got to square away. But, like how you said, you'd be shocked. You'd be shocked. And that's why I feel like somewhere in the middle is the correct answer.
Yeah. Where we can believe in eternal security. Once saved, always saved. Yes. And yes, your works do matter, but for a different purpose.
So on the day of judgment You and I, as believers, are not waiting there for that final piece of evidence to arrive that will vindicate me or to know for sure: am I saved? Oh, thank the Lord. Before I died, I got everything straight.
So I am in heaven. And that person who before he died made a wrong choice or They were not where they needed to be with God. And you are here wondering are they going to make it or are they not I don't know I hope so I hope so No, both of those views are false. False. They are unbiblical.
But Imagine on the day of judgment for Judas. Who is not a believer? Mm-hmm. He was not a believer. Standing before God.
Can you imagine everybody would probably stop and go, Jesus, I want to see this one. Yeah, I know. It's like a car wreck just happens in slow motion. You're like, I can't take my eyes away from this. Yeah.
A lot of people will be judged. There will be the Hitlers and and there will be The wicked people, the rapists, the murderers, the good guy next door, who man who trusted his good works, oh, the sweet old lady down the street, just a sweet, sweet soul. But Didn't go to church, didn't care about Jesus. or people all over the world who worship God in their own image. But then comes Judas.
Oh, man. And everybody, there's a hush there. Wow. Whoa. We got to deal with you now.
I heard a comedian. I heard a comedian say that's the only line. In all of history, you're not going to be in a rush to get to the front of. That's the only line ever. Everybody's fighting to get the front.
Ain't nobody cutting line. Ain't nobody getting, that's the one line you wish, you want to be as far back as possible. Yeah. And it's not going to be like, thousands and thousands of years going on while this judgment continues. No, Because it's Christ's time, it's God's time.
Not that time ends on the other side, but it's a different kind of time. that it'll probably it'll be done very quickly in seconds. Yeah. Wow. And and I think that's that's helpful for this conversation when We realize that our sins matter.
The type of sins that we commit. The type of roads that we choose to go down really do have eternal impact. You know, we like to think that, well, all sin is sin, so I may as well engage in the fun ones. I may as well engage in the ones that enjoy my time while I'm here. Yeah, especially because I'm Christian.
I'm already forgiven. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit, Dr. Shah. I know that's not in the consequences of sin, but those who think, well, I am saved. I'm secure.
These couple of sins aren't gonna hurt.
Well, I want to come to that in a second. But I want to talk to believers about not just sins of commission, but sins of omission, or even in places where we did not completely obey God and do what He called us to do.
So in the book of James, In our church, we just finished a series in the book of James about maybe a month ago. In James chapter 3 verse 1 he's talking to the teachers. The Bible teachers. And he says this: He says, My brethren. let not many of you become teachers, Knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
This is not judgment as in the great white throne judgment at the end of time. where the books are opened. And there you stand, Yeah. Because of How you lived. Because of how you rejected Christ, where are you going?
It's going to be dealt with. I mean, there's not really a judgment in the sense of.
Now it's going to be decided, but it's more of a The sentencing. Sentencing. That's that's a better way to say that. It's the sentencing that's happening. Yeah.
This judgment is happening much earlier. This judgment is happening at the second coming of Christ. Where we are judged based on how we served God. And how we live for him. how we used our gifts, our talents, our resources.
Yeah. How teachers taught And There is a stricter judgment for teachers who did not teach. Biblical truth who misled God's people. It's not like they're going to go to hell. But there is a judgment where those gifts are not given to them.
Those crowns are withheld. That's scary. That's yeah. Thinking of like Sunday school lesson prep that's headed in front of me before this weekend. And I'm like, this verse is often in my mind as I'm studying, as I'm working on lessons, as I'm getting things ready for the weekend.
That's stricter judgment. It's not something to take lightly. There's lots of people who are like, I want to teach a class. I want to teach a class. I want to teach a class.
Maybe hit the brakes. Yeah. Yeah. There's a stricter standard. Yeah.
And there's, I think, there's like people even in my position in worship leading where, you know, I'm not really giving a whole lot of thought to what I'm saying between the songs, but I'm just here to play the songs and pick the music and make sure the congregation is singing. And I might plus say like a little verse or something and not take it seriously. But I think about even, like you said, the old mission, like you're wasting your time. You're wasting the time that God has given to you by not engaging the congregation, not pastoring your people. And It's one of those things that we just don't think about because it's so far on the horizon.
It's on the other side. And yet, when it comes, now the reckoning is here. Yeah. And then, now to answer the question you asked about what about when people say, well, my sin is not that bad. Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah. Just like, I'm going to heaven. Right, I may as well engage in the fun sins now while I can enjoy them. Yeah, I mean, good grief. You're presuming on God's grace.
I've had people ask me, so-and-so lives a certain way and acts a certain way, are they truly saved? And if they are just living a certain way, and there has never been even an ounce of evidence of. Of some change in their heart? Like when they got saved, did they even be like, man, I. I know God is in me.
I know. that I'm saved. If that hasn't happened, then they're probably not saved. They are probably You know, church member, or they got baptized, or something else, but they never truly got saved because. salvation brings a certain Awareness A certain awareness that You belong to God.
I know people who do have their awareness but still sin. Why do they do that? Yeah. It's a lot of factors. How they were raised.
how they have justified and rationalized their behavior over the years. Bad Bible teachings, bad examples and models in their lives. I mean, there are a myriad of reasons why.
Some people do that. And it's it's not right. But are there consequences? If they're truly saved, The consequences are more in how God's going to bless them at the second coming. Yeah.
Are the consequences in the sense of going to hell? No, that's already settled. You say, what about a person who thinks I can just live it up and have a great life? Here's what I would tell that person. Get alone with God and make sure that you're really, really saved.
Because if you're saying stuff like that, I'm not quite sure. Yeah. Right. And I cannot say you're not saved because. If you received Christ as your Saviour and you really had that awareness, then what can I say?
You confessed Christ. You are saved. But if you're also saying those things Maybe get alone with God and say, God, why am I thinking that? It's all right to do this. Do I truly understand?
Yeah, because it seems like your Holy Spirit is not giving me the wisdom that I need.
So, something discernment? Yeah, the discernment, the wisdom, something on my end is not connecting. Is there conviction in your life? I mean, I know we can sin even though there's conviction. I truly get that.
We do that all the time. The Holy Spirit convicts us, and yet we still lie. We still. Get angry. We still.
you know, murder somebody's reputation. We still gossip. People do that all the time.
So I'm not saying that conviction will immediately stop sin. But if there's zero conviction? You are Not even an ounce miserable because of your sin? Yeah, maybe you need to do some hearts, soul searching, and ask the Lord, God. I don't think.
I know you. Yeah. 100%. Pay attention to how deadened that spiritual sensitivity is, that conviction. If it's not there, that could be evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit in your life.
It could be. I don't know if we have time to dive into this as deeply as we want, but someone made a comment on one of the past videos when we were talking about sin, about Romans 1, where God gives people over to this basic mind. Wow. And what they were saying is: you know, if God is the one giving them over to it, How are we culpable? And I think there might be a misunderstanding there because it's not saying God hardened their hearts and it's like he chose, all right, you're going to be sinners, and I'm going to punish you for what I just chose for you.
Yeah, it isn't, that's not what Paul is saying. That goes back to the Pharaoh argument in Exodus. If God hardened his heart, how is Pharaoh culpable? Yeah, that's a great question. We're going to probably answer that in the next show or something.
Sure. But here, I would say, Romans chapter one, if that's what you're referring to, is talking about. Peoples, not individuals. You know, it's talking about cultures and civilizations. God gave them up to uncleanness in the lusts of their hearts to dishonor their What is what are you noticing there?
It's all plural. It's all plural. The number there is not single, it's plural. It's talking about peoples. It means collectively, humanity.
And especially certain cultures and civilizations have so closed their minds off against God. that God gave them over. If I can, I mean, we don't have much time. What's happening in Europe is very troubling. It should be troubling to us.
What's happening in places like Germany? whereby in the next ten years, twenty thousand some churches will be closed. Done. 20,000 churches, beautiful, beautiful churches.
Some of them are very old.
Some of them are just in the last century, 100 years old, maybe even less. Shutting down. They're considering how to repurpose these churches. They are questioning whether they need to be Museums They need to be Civic centers, whether they need to be Dance. Like like a uh club.
They're considering all that. I mean, what we saw. Recently in St. Paul's Cathedral using that. It's like a rave in the night spot for a rave.
Yeah. And I was like, wow, I've been in there. Yeah. It's a beautiful place. Not during the rave.
No, no. I walked all the way up into the dome. Yeah. Wow. Nicole and I have done that, and it's a climb.
Beautiful, beautiful place. John Donne was one of my fav is one of my favorite Pastors He was a pastor of the church, St. Paul's Cathedral in London. And now to see them doing this. It's very tragic, awful, very sad.
It's not like, hey, we're going to have a youth concert. Yeah, by all means, do it. I mean, I'm for it. I don't care what somebody says. Put some lights on, put some drums, beats, get some youth in there.
To share the gospel with them, bring some Rock, Christian Rock, bringing it. No, this is. Just the secular stuff.
Some people may disagree with me and say, well, that's what the problem is. No, no, no. If they're using any means to capture the hearts of the young people with the gospel of Jesus Christ, right. Turn that place. Light it up.
Yeah. But if you're doing it Just to get drunk and have a good time. Right. What? No, no, absolutely not.
That's right.
So, what we're seeing in some of these. Countries in Europe is what's being referred to in Romans 1. Whereas peoples, as cultures, as generations, they are closing their minds off to God. and God is giving them over. My prayer is that he would not.
My prayer is that there will be a revival, not only in America. In Canada, in South America, in Mexico? In Europe, in England, Germany, name it. I mean, go all the way into Africa, Asia. Russia, I'm praying for Revival Day.
China? Iran I mean they need God. They need Jesus Christ. Amen. And it's not just about us.
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