Kinda Judgy | Shannon Popkin

Across Africa, millions of Christians are suffering a Bible famine. They hunger for God's Word, but there simply aren't enough Bibles. Today, Timothy Project is close to launching Africa's first Bible web press. To help complete this project, visit timothyproject.info. He is a judge who judges, but what he most wants us to know about himself is this mercy.

Like that is what can soften our hearts. Like that's what will change us. That will change us from the inside out. Is encountering God's mercy afresh. This is Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . What is one of the main criticisms of Christians today? Anything come to mind? If you thought of the word judgmental, you'd be onto something that our guest believes is important for us to deal with. Her name is Shannon Popkin.

She's the author of our featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us. It is aptly titled "Kinda Judgy: Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible." You can find out more at BuildingRelationships.us. U.S. and Gary, this is one of those issues we see both outside and inside the church, don't we? We do, Chris.

And I don't know. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are all self-centered, and we know that we're right about everything. And if the other person doesn't do or say the way we think they ought to, then we we judge them. We said, you know, we put them down. And we may not verbalize it, but in our mind, you know, we judge them.

Of course, God sees the heart of a person; we don't. We just see the outward things. But I'm excited about our program today because I think this book, and I'm glad to talk about this topic with Shannon. It's going to help a lot of people because all of us need help in terms of how do we handle that natural sense we have to be judgmental. Yes.

Well, let's meet her. Shannon Popkin is an author, Bible teacher, host of the Live Like It's True podcast. She's been married to her husband Ken for 30 years, and they have three adult children and a new daughter-in-law. They live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Our featured resource today is her book, Kinda Judgy: Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories in the Bible.

Again, you can find out more at BuildingRelationships.us.

Well, Shannon, welcome to Building Relationships. Thank you so much. It's great to be with you. Before we get into the topic for today, tell us about your backstory, how you met and fell in love with Ken, and a little bit about your family.

Well, I was just telling you, Gary, before we started recording that I got married in 1995, which your book, The Love Languages, came out just before that.

So I think it was pretty much required reading for any Christian couple, or any maybe any couple at all at that point. And I do remember us talking about our love languages in our relationship. But I met my husband. I'm a blind date statistic, and so we. We went to the same church, but I was working up in the youth group, and and my husband was working in the basement with the fourth and fifth graders.

So we didn't really cross paths. And then a mutual friend set us up on a blind date, and I mean, I. I just immediately liked him. He was—he was, you know, he was handsome. He loved the Lord.

I could tell he was a good man. But I think what really made me fall in love with him was his humor. He made me laugh, and he still today makes me laugh. He just made me laugh this morning reading me something funny from a book he was reading.

So we have that in common, and I'm just so so thankful to be doing life. We've we've been married for 30 years now, so so thankful.

Well, congratulations!

Now you have children. Yes, we have three grown children. One is married, so we have a new daughter-in-law, and we're so grateful for all all of our kids. And they're all love the Lord, and we just couldn't be more more happy about that.

Well, that's exciting.

Well, let's looking at your podcast and the things you've written. You really believe in the power of studying the Bible. Why is that so important to you?

Well, I think it's so important to read the Bible, not just to know stuff. You know, it's not just so that we know things, but it's so that we know God. A. W. Tozer, I think, says, "Whatever comes into our mind when we think about God, that's the most important thing about us." And and God wants us to know Him, like to have a personal relationship with Him.

And He revealed Himself in this story. You know, this Bible. The Bible has this overarching story, and so through the story. It's like we come to know new things about God. We there are things that we learn in the New Testament that we didn't know about Him in the Old Testament, and it's like this progressive thing where God just has more and more to say about Himself, and those who On the outside looking in, I think sometimes they see God.

You know, they they they think they can put Him on trial or make demands of God. But those of us who open the Bible, it just helps to reorient us and to help us see things from this top-down perspective. To see it from the perspective of our Creator, and and I think what we find, like if I had to boil it down to what we find about Him, this one thing that I see in God as I read. The Bible, cover to cover, is He is so merciful. That's what He wants us to know about Himself, and that's what He wants us to respond to.

I think you're right about that. Have you seen, through the years, as you have taught, you know, from the Scriptures on various topics, have you seen people's lives changed in the in when they when they discover God's perspective on things? Absolutely, yeah. It's so the the Bible is so orienting, right, or reorienting. And I, with my podcast and my books and Bible studies, I like to focus on the stories of the Bible.

I'm just taken with story, and I love the way that stories move us. And the Bible, you know, has it's like 43, I believe, story or narrative. And so I see God working through story to access our hearts. And so, in the same way, like that, you and I might read a newspaper newspaper article and just kind of skim the content, and then go to a movie about that same thing, and and we cry at the theater when we weren't as moved by just reading the content, the information. I think that's why God includes stories.

I mean, He's the one who created us, and He created us to be these story driven creatures. But yeah, as I see people, like it's my passion to to invite people to open the Bible. With me and drink in these stories, and then to let the stories impact our hearts, and and so that they move us to live like the story is true.

So I love watching God transform people as they encounter Him and in His Word. Yeah.

Well, you've certainly used stories in a very positive way in this book.

So let's talk about our topic. The main criticism of Christians by the outside world is that they are judgmental. How many times we heard this? You just judgmental, or they say, or as you say, use the word "judgy." They're judgy. Do you agree?

And how did your experience growing up in the church maybe shape your own perspective on this topic? Yes, I think it's it's a little bit easier on the you know the ego to say that I'm judgy versus judgmental, but I think I think we're all kind of judgy, aren't we? I just think, I mean, look at how people respond to someone that they think is wrong in our culture today. You know, social media in particular. There's just so much finger pointing, and we can be so polarized and reactive to others.

You know, we're just so convinced that we're right. And particularly in the church, you know, I I do think that church people can be particularly judgy. I grew up in a fundamentalist denomination, and I have this very distinct memory of being on a bus with some teens and processing the news. We had just heard this news that a boy from our youth group had invited a girl from our school to a Movie, a horror of all horrors, you know, movie, and we we could not have told you why that was wrong, but you know, there was just this righteous indignation burning in our teenage hearts, and you know, I I think that it's that that moral superiority that the world is bristling at, and I think the world is right to some degree, you know, I think they're right because we are the ones who are called to be in the world but not of the world, Jesus says we're to be merciful. As our Father in Heaven is merciful, and so this mercy that we have received, it's meant to reshape our our hearts and and change us to be people who reflect our Father.

Yeah.

Well, we know that in the Christian faith, of course, we have different denominations. Do you think that that all the different denominations of the Christian faith that it increases your chance of being judgy because we do disagree on different things? You know, the different denominations. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I think we're you know the denominations have to do with looking at scripture and reading different parts differently.

We're we're persuaded in different ways, and so I don't think the denominations are necessarily wrong, but I think that the way we think about other denominations can be absolutely wrong, because you know we're just so convinced that we're right, and as we should be. You know, if we're persuaded in a particular way, but, but we have all of this division and strife and church splits and everything, and and it's not. Based on core doctrine, always you know. A lot of times it's these secondary, tertiary issues, like really not important things, and we're convinced we're right and they're wrong. And again, inside the church, we have this moral superiority.

You know, we're sizing each other up. We make snap judgments about different people and different denominations. And this is the body of Christ, right? And so, I don't know, Gary. I mean, I get to serve at a lot of different denominations, and what I do.

You know, because I'm a speaker, I'm an outsider coming in, and I just think, you know, if if we could get inside each other's doors and just get to know one another, what I notice is, man, y'all y'all are pretty great, and I think that the enemy is the one using like this pride to create our division and our judgy attitudes toward one another. Yeah.

Yeah, you know I've had the same experience because I speak in all kind of churches, and I'm just encouraged when I see the differences you know in in the worship styles and and other things that we may disagree on, but it's it's it's great that there is diversity. Yeah, yeah, yes, so thankful.

Well, Shannon, let's talk about how judgment shows up in everyday life. And do you think that judgment is caught from our parents or from others around us? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think we have to just differentiate between what judging is and isn't. I mean, judging. Is about determining right from wrong, and there are lines clearly drawn by God between right and wrong. And so, you know, like it's not wrong for a parent to teach a child. Like this is wrong.

Deuteronomy tells us that we're to train our children and to teach them diligently. You know, when we're at home or walking by the way or lying down and rising up.

So it's our job to teach our kids right from wrong. And and I mean, judging is basically saying.

Well, that person is wrong, but there are a lot of ways that we judge wrongly, and I think behind you know, we've in our world today we've got like these different megaphones where one person is is yelling, "You are wrong," and the other is like, "You are judging." So we've got all these battles going on, and yeah, I think our kids are are. They're noticing that you know we are discipling our children, particularly when we're not intentionally discipling our children. We're we're showing them the truth about right and wrong, and so as we have these these attitudes of superiority and this condescending sort of judgment, yeah, unfortunately, our kids are learning. Um, they're they're learning about that, and and so we we do have to be mindful, like what are they picking. Up in not just what we say, but in our attitudes.

And so, yeah, I just think being mindful of the the finger of judgment is always pointing down with this condescending superiority, and you know, lifting ourselves up in the process. And that, and so it's the pride component that's what makes this wrong. That's what we have to be mindful of, you know, as we are modeling to our children. What are they picking up in the ways that we talk about people who are wrong? You know, whether it's on TV or the neighbor or in church, you know that person.

Can you believe? You know those sorts of, those sorts of attitudes. Where we are wrongly passing on this pride to our kids. Yeah, I think we fail to recognize sometimes that our model. Is having a tremendous impact on our children.

You know, we can tell them one thing, but they see us do something different, and so they they they follow more by what we see than what they see.

So, what what about let's let's kind of turn it on the other side. What about when we feel judged by our mother-in-law, or our boss, or an adult child, or maybe a friend at church? What's our natural response to that, and and Why.

Well, I think our natural response when we feel judged is to judge right back, right? We just have these sensors, these feelers out for any judgment that we can find in someone's, you know, especially in these family relationships. You know, a mother-in-law or a child. You know, someone in our family. Like, we can just sense their judgment, and I can tell you right now, my my adult kids will say, "Mom, I feel like you're judging me," and I'm like, "I'm not." You, I didn't say anything, and they're like, I can just see it in your face, and so I think, you know, it's like whatever is in our heart, it is gonna, it is gonna be revealed in our, in our actions toward one another and our reactions, and so when we feel judged, I think what we want to do is we want to judge right back.

And that's and and so then we judge and then they feel judged and they want to judge right back and and it creates this whole reactive kind of system where we're pulling away from one another, we're pointing fingers and we're we're listing out you know we play court in our heads and we list out all the ways that I'm right and she's wrong and she shouldn't have judged me and all you know it's just it can really snowball quickly and so I think why do we why do we do this like why do we when we feel judged why do we want to judge Back, I think we get these little judgy boosts of pride. You know, like they're they're kind of putting me down. You know, the finger of judgment points down, and I feel like I'm being put down, and so I want to judge them right back because I want to lift myself up. It's like we feel better. It reminds me of when my daughter was about four.

She would come downstairs after after bed, and she'd be standing on the stairway, and saying, "Well, Coley got out of bed again, you know, her two-year-old brother." And I would look at her and I'd say, "Uh-oh, sweetie, and what about you?" Because here she is, she's out of bed to tell me that he's out of bed. And I think that's when we're when we're like pointing out the errors and others. It We don't have to think about the own our own errors. I think so. How we need to solve this is not by reacting in pride and judgment, but you know, just let's just use some humility in our relationships.

I think that would heal so many things, wouldn't it? I agree with you. You know, I think the question is because it is natural for us to come back with a judgmental statement. How do we break that pattern? Yes, and that's what really what this book is all about.

So we're going to talk more about that later.

Now, inside and outside the church are people who recoil at the idea of God being a judge, and a judge who might actually send someone to everlasting punishment. A lot of churches, you don't hear that. Other churches, you hear a lot about that. And so, what do you say about that when God? People are criticizing God for being too judgmental.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we sometimes feel that we are in a position to judge God. And like I was talking about earlier, if you don't know God, if you're like an outsider looking in, I can't understand why you'd feel that way, you know, and just recoil at a God who would would judge, you know, eternal judgment. That doesn't that seem pretty severe? It sort of reminds me of the people in Jericho, you know, who were they see Israel camping across the river and they're coming against them.

And so, what do those people do? They just boarded their city up. They have these double walls, and they feel threatened, and so they're hiding behind their walls and they're putting up their, you know. Their doors and their—that's how they're reacting to this army, and and I think you know that's that's just our response throughout history to bristle at the idea that God is the judge, that He is the ruler over heaven and earth, and that we answer to Him. But in that story of Jericho, here's what God finds remarkable: there is this woman in the city who—I mean, she's just part of Jericho, just like everybody else.

She has sinned against God, just like every. Else, and yet, you know, her whole city is boarded up in defiance to him, and yet she, the one woman, she cries out for mercy. She's like waving her little white flag, like saying, "Can I switch sides?" And and so, I mean. God says yes, like His response to the one who wants mercy is this overwhelming yes. And so, I mean, it's interesting because she's not yet following God's ways.

She's a prostitute. The only difference between her and everybody else in that city is that she is the one asking for mercy. And so, and and the other thing I think is so interesting about that story is if you if you back up and you consider the whole story of God's army marching and taking the city, like you can scoop out that part. About Rahab and these these spies who come, you know, and stay at her. You can you can take that whole story out, and like the plot is unaffected.

And so, why is it included? I think this is what God wants us to know. He wants for us to know that in a world filled with people who are defying God, who say, "You know, how dare you judge me?" the one person who will turn and say, "But can I have your mercy?" His answer is yes. And so, he's just he's watching, he's waiting for that one who cries out for mercy. And I just I want that to be me, and I want that to be anyone who's listening right now.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes people are just you know judgmental in terms of God sending people to destruction, you know, and that kind of thing. But in reality, God. Went out of his way to give us a chance, not to be separated from him, but to have a relationship with him.

So that's that's wonderful. That is what we see in the Bible, like the story of the flood is only six chapters in, you know.

So he is the judge who judges, but why is the story so long, and why are we still waiting on the story's conclusion? It's because of his mercy, his his extension of mercy. He's yes. He will respond in judgment, but he's like, "But first, I want to show you mercy." I think that's what he leads with. That's who he is.

That's what he wants us to know about himself. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, my observation is that those of us who have been around the church a long time are often the quickest to judge other people's sins. Talk about that phenomenon, and what can help soften our hearts, because God has a soft heart. Yeah, it's it's interesting, isn't it? That those of us around, you know, we feel most comfortable in the church, and I put myself in that category, Gary. I feel More comfortable in a Bible study group than I do at a bar, and a lot of people feel exactly the opposite.

But so I'm I'm talking to the other church people here, and and saying like, yeah, we do. We tend to be the quickest to to dispense condemnation and judgment. We feel so like I think it's like we we have this attitude of I'm so scandalized by sin. You know, I can't believe they did that. I can't believe she wore that or she said that or whatever it is, and.

And and I think behind all of that judgment, we don't see our pride, but other people do. I have a friend who was in a prayer group. And she loved this prayer group, and they were intercessors for their church and their neighborhood and their community. And um, and she told me that she had stopped going. And I was like, "Why you loved that group?" And she's like, "Well, it's just like, there the women in the group many times the topic of homosexuality has come come up, and she said they're just like clutching their pearls and they're outraged and they have all this morals.

You know, they just can't believe." And she's like, "Here I am grieving because." My son is living this openly gay lifestyle, and I can't tell them that. And I just think, oh, my heart broke for her because I think, you know, around our tables of church ladies, church people, we have this attitude of, I never have, I never would, I never could, and yet I think we need to be mindful of the one who is saying, Yeah, but what if I have? You know, what is God's heart toward me? And I think in our moral superiority, we think that. We're representing God, you know, because God's the one who says that this is wrong.

But that is not the God that we meet in the Bible. Yes, like I said, He is a judge who judges. But what He most wants us to know about Himself is this mercy, and so that should just be so evident in our interactions. And and I do think like that is what can soften our hearts. Like that—that's what will change us.

That will change us from the inside out. Is encountering God's mercy. See afresh. Yeah, yeah. So maybe one of our prayers should be, God, help me to see other people the way Jesus sees them.

Yes, He died for them. He died for me, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Well, here's the biggest question of the hour: When Jesus said, "Do not judge," what was He actually addressing? Right, yeah. Like I said, I think there's a lot of confusion about that. We've got people saying, you know, you are wrong, and others are saying, "Do not judge." As if like you're not allowed to say that something is wrong. You know, like that the Bible prohibits us from saying that something is wrong.

That's our cultural moment that we're living in right now. It's wrong to say that someone is wrong, and so I think you know discernment begins with letting God determine right from. And so, you know, when when Jesus said, "Do not judge," here is what He wasn't saying. We're not judging when we parent our children and teach them this is sin. We're not judging when we, you know, confront someone who is in perpetual sin.

That's what Matthew eighteen teaches us to do. You know, we're not judging when we say that the Bible is the clear, authoritative word of God. And so, you know, as believers, we're not called to ignore sin or redefine sin, or certainly not celebrate sin.

So, what does Jesus mean then when He's saying, "Do not judge"? I think it's a command, but it's also a warning, because it's it's followed with all the stuff about hypocrisy. You know, it's in the Sermon of the Mount and on the Mount, and Jesus is talking about. He says, "Do not judge, lest you be judged." So there's this warning, and and then he talks about this whole log and speck in the eye thing. If our listeners have heard that section, it's like get the log that's sticking out of your eye, get that out, so that you can see clearly to get.

The speck out of somebody else's eye, but the point when when Jesus was saying this, he wasn't saying get that log out of your eye so that you can close your eyes to somebody else's sin. It's so it's so that you can do this this sin removal, and and so the point is like what is that log sticking out of our eye? I think it's most often it's our our hypocrisy and our pride. It's like You know we don't even see how wrong we are, and I'm just picturing you know the mom who's wagging her finger in the in the face of her lying child, or you know the wife who's rolling her eyes at her husband because he's laid again or whatever it is, and so. These people that we're preaching at—they're backing away, and that's what Jesus is warning against.

He's like, "Let's be done with the hypocrisy of the judging. Let's let's see clearly and get these blind spots out of our eyes." This is the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. He's the New York Times best-selling author of "The 5 Love Languages" . Find out more about today's program topic at BuildingRelationships.us.

We have great resources there for you. List of seminar locations coming up for Dr. Chapman. You can hear a podcast of the program and find out about Shannon Popkin's book, Kinda Judgy: Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible. Just go to.

BuildingRelationships.us, or you can find us at FiveLoveLanguages.com. And if you have a question for Doctor Chapman that you'd like to hear an answer to, you can call us and our listener line is easy to remember: eight six six four two four. Gary, leave your message, and you might hear an answer on a future "Dear Gary" broadcast at the end of the month. Again, call us at one eight six six four two four. Gary and Shannon, what Gary.

Just asked you is the number one question I think because we I hear this so much in the culture and you know pointed at Christians judge not lest ye be judged.

So how does a person who has that finger pointed at them says you shouldn't be judging? How do they respond to the person making the accusation? Especially if that person is outside the the Christian community. Yeah.

So you're being told. You can't judge. You're not allowed to judge, right? This is isn't this your command? And I think you know our response is well.

Judge. Good judgment is found in deferring to God, and so it's not me saying that this is right or wrong. This is God, and I'm deferring to Him. And my attitude toward someone who has crossed that line, my instruction is to say, "Yeah, I I too have judged, or I too have crossed." There is no line that God has drawn that I I have not crossed, and so I need to have this attitude that is not this. Proud, you know, superiority, and if you're sensing in that in me, that would be wrong, and that is what I'm being warned against in these verses.

Don't judge, or I'm going to be judged for my hypocrisy, right? And Jesus went on to say that. For for you will be judged by the same standard with which you judge others, and you will be measured by the same measure you use. And so when you're when you're out there measuring the wrongs of other people, like picture you've got a scoop in your hand, you know, and you're measuring. Let's make the scoop measuring mercy, not judgment.

Okay. And so let's say you're you're dispensing of mercy, and you see this person, and they have crossed God's line. Whatever. Size scoop. If you've got a big gallon size scoop for your mercy, and you're just pouring that mercy into their lives, well, then you're going to receive back that sort of mercy from the Lord.

But if you've got a little, like quarter of a teaspoon size scoop of mercy, well, then that's what you're going to get back from the Lord. And so, this is, I mean, these are some serious warnings that Jesus has given us, and and I think his intention behind it is like we're we're not to judge people as if we too have not. And and I think you know I mean if we want to look at the best model of all we can look at Jesus. How did Jesus treat people who had crossed the lines that he clearly had drawn? Think about that story where Simon the Pharisee is seated at the table, and this sinful woman comes up behind Jesus, and she's weeping at his feet.

And Simon has this sort of like judgy attitude. You know, he's holding court in his head, and he's like looking at her, the sinner. He he talks about her. Like if Jesus knew what sort of woman that she is, and so by implication she's a different sort than him. And how does Jesus respond?

You know, we we get the sense that Simon would like for a judgier Jesus, you know, for Jesus to just be swatting her and say, "Get away from me," and yet Jesus doesn't. He he receives this woman, and then he corrects Simon for his judgy attitude, and he tells the story about two people who are are. Up to their necks in in sin debt. One of them has more, but the other has less. And so, and what he's doing in this story is he's he's telling the story of Simon and the prostitute.

He's putting the Pharisee and the prostitute together in the same story. Yes, one has less sin than the other, but they're both drowning in their sin debt, and they need someone to to pay for them. And Jesus is like, "That's me. I've come. I've come to pay for for the sin debt." And so, this affects the.

Way that we see one another when we realize, like I'm just like her, you know. Maybe she has more sin or less sin, but it should change our attitude toward other people and reframe the way that we see them and the way that we see ourselves.

Okay, so let's say that somebody you know, maybe in the family, maybe out of the family, maybe a Christian, maybe not a Christian, but they break what God said. More than once in the Bible, don't get drunk. How do you start the conversation? What would you say? Yeah, well, this is a command of the Lord, isn't it?

And so I think it makes a difference: is this person a believer or not, right? And so if they're an unbeliever, you know. We can't expect that they would live their life by God's commands, you know, any differently. But we can call them to that. We can say, "Look, like this is going to destroy your life, and you need Jesus, right?

You need that. He's primary. He's what you need." And so, I think the conversation could go that way. But if it's a fellow believer, like it's your husband or your child, and and they. They follow Jesus, and yet this is clearly a way that they have crossed one of God's lines.

I think a great way to start the conversation is, "I too fall short in this area." You know, I am excessive. Maybe not with alcohol, but with with me, it would be sugar. I'd eat too much sugar. I'm, you know, there are other ways that I am excessive. And both of us, what we need is to align with God if we're going to flourish, and we need His help to do that.

You know, can I help you? How can I be a good support to you in this way? And and just so calling to mind, like I think, coming alongside with a hand around the shoulders instead of the finger pointing down, we get a lot more a lot more mileage of out of that. But I think before we even have that conversation to back up and deal with our own hearts privately, another another issue that a lot of families are dealing with is pornography. And I had a couple friends in Bible.

Study one day, we were talking about we were talking about contempt and how contempt is this like being disgusted with some other sinner and treating them like you know I never have, I never would, I never could. Like I I have climbed into God's chair and I'm swinging His gavel and I loathe you and you you know you're just awful. And so we were talking about how like yes, this other sinner is wrong, but when we have that sort of attitude, we too are wrong. And so these two girls in Bible study. Both had husbands who were addicted to pornography, and and they were they were so humbled by this this conversation that we had about contempt.

It kind of goes back to that, you know. Jesus says, "Do not judge," that you won't be judged. They were they were realizing, like, I actually haven't used a lot of mercy toward my husband, and so these two women decided, okay, we're going to make a pact, and rather than rehearsing our Disgust and our contempt over our husband's sin. What we're gonna do is we're gonna mercy, we're gonna influence each other. We're gonna have this mercy sort of influence, right?

And we're gonna we're gonna respond. You know, we're gonna pray for our husbands. We're gonna create. A safe place for them, you know. Within our two families, we're going to welcome these husbands.

We're going to pray for them, and we're gonna we're gonna hold each other accountable with this whole contempt thing. And it was just this remarkable change in the the marriages. In you know, both of these husbands, they started attending a Bible study together. The Lord worked in their hearts, and I think it started with these these wives and their attitude. Toward the sin of their husbands, yeah.

Part of this also involves, if it's a non-Christian conversation with them, right? And no matter what the topic, but to say, if you see them doing something or a lifestyle that's just paint that you know is against Scripture, just say to them things like, "I notice that you da da da da da da. What led you? What leads you to do that? What motivates you to do that?" Yeah, just trying to find out where they're coming from, you know, so you can say, "Oh, yeah, I can see now how you would drift into that," and because you've engaged them in conversation, then they may well even say to you, "Well, how do you feel about that?" And yes, yes, absolutely.

And now you can share. Yes, conversations and curiosity before the judgment. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very, very important.

Okay, Shannon, you talk about holding court in your head, and often judging others superficially. How do we avoid that pitfall? Yes, I think it's it sort of has to do with what we're just talking about. We can be so closed-minded and presumptive, as if we know, right? As if we know everything about this other person.

We haven't even had a conversation with them, and and we do this, like you said, we do this thing where we hold court. We list out all the ways that I'm right and they're wrong, and you know, we we examine the evidence, we pound our gavels, we issue the verdict, and court is adjourned and. You know this other person is completely judged, and yet. We don't. We truly don't know, and so one of the things that I think the Lord has really convicted my heart of of being so closed minded and presumptive about other people.

We see that in the Pharisees. You know, the Pharisees over and over they said, "We know that Jesus is not from God. We know." Well, how did they know that? You know, what what were they basing that judgment on? And so I think, you know, we we have to be so Mindful of the fact that we don't know that we are not the judge.

I I met with a counselor once working through a reconciliation situation, and he told me, "You know what, Shannon, you are so jaded. You you know presume that what this person is saying is not actually what they mean. You know, you you just have so many assumptions about what." Actually, is going on, or what you know, how this is actually going to turn out, and he confronted me. He said, "You know, instead of judging, what I want to ask you to do is First Corinthians says that love hopes all things. Let's just let's just abandon this idea that you know, right?

Let's hope all things and and assume that this person is telling the truth.

Now that doesn't mean abandon all good judgment, like you know, but it. He he told me if I'm being lied to, or if this person is is disingenuine, well then that will come, that will surface, and that will be the time to deal with it. But for now, I could just enter into this relationship with an open hearted. You know, not presuming the worst about this other person, and can I just tell you what a huge difference that has made in my life? Right to not just be presuming that I know, you know, holding court in my head.

The other person doesn't even know that I'm holding court, and so I think we we avoid that pitfall first of all by dealing with our own presumptions. You know, just reminding ourselves, and and I have started doing that in friendships where someone's talking about someone else. And they're frustrated. I'm like, well, do you actually know that? You know, let's let's not pre prematurely cast judgment.

Like, let's let's not superficially assume that we know something we don't because we don't. And so, I think just just being mindful of the fact that there are so many things that we don't know. Yeah.

So we we we can hold convictions. And as Christians, we do have convictions based on what Jesus said, right? To do or not to do, and and we believe that every command Jesus gave to do or not to do, is because He loves us and He wants us to have the best possible life.

So we can hold those convictions without just overtly judging everybody that that that doesn't believe them or doesn't even know them. You know, right? Yes.

Yes.

And and particularly with non Christians, building some kind of relationship before we come down and condemn them for something. Is going far more likely to be used of God to bring them to Christ, right? Yes, yes. I mean, we can't expect that that those outside the family of faith would have the same convictions because they don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have the Word of God.

How would they know this? And I mean, Paul says that you know we aren't called to judge those outside the family of faith. That's true. Yeah.

Now you've mentioned mercy again and again and again in our conversation. What is mercy, and what surprising effect does it have on us and on the people we relate to?

Well, mercy is not receiving the judgment that we do deserve. Right. That's what. That's what mercy is, and that mercy—the effect that mercy has—is it's very moving. There's this story of the thief on the cross who's next to Jesus, and he is mocking Jesus, he's judging Jesus, he and this other this other criminal on both sides.

I mean, it's like their hands are nailed to the cross, and yet their fingers are still pointing down at Jesus somehow. And so, something happens between the time. That he's mocking Jesus and the time that he says to Jesus, "Remember me when you enter your kingdom." And and so, like something in his heart shifts. And and really, what's there's just one thing that's recorded, and it's Jesus and his prayer. And it's this beautiful prayer of mercy.

He says, "Father, forgive them; they don't know what they're doing." He he prays, "Like Lord, you know, don't let the the final judgment fall yet. Give them more time. They don't see." They don't understand, and so he prays that God's mercy would be poured out on these people, and and so this thief. There is this huge shift. He goes from mocking and scoffing to siding with Jesus.

He's like, you know, we've done all this wrong stuff, and this guy—he's innocent. He's done nothing wrong, and and so Luke doesn't tell us that this is what he's affected by. But I mean, Luke's a storyteller, and you know, storytellers—they show us. They don't just tell us what's happening. And so I think what's happening here is this mercy has an effect on this man.

Mercy is jarring. It's unexpected. It's it's rare. It's precious. It's beautiful, and we always think, don't we, Gary, that it's like if we get in the face of somebody, like you're saying, you know, just pointing out their sin and you know judging them, get in their face.

We feel like that's going to have the effect, but it's actually the opposite. You know, it's it's mercy. That moves us, and Romans two four says it's God's kindness is intended to lead us to repentance. There's intentionality that He's it's intended to have this effect, and so God's kind mercy, it's intended to have an effect on us, and it will have that same effect on other people, right? And so, this is as we consider the the sin that we see in other people, let's be more like Jesus, right?

Let's Let's invite them with mercy. That's, I mean, that's what happened to this thief. He went from being a criminal to being a friend of Jesus. Jesus says, "Today you're going to be with me in paradise." And paradise is is like the word for the the king would have the special garden where he would walk with his friend. This this hard and criminal is going to be the special friend of Jesus in His garden.

I mean, what what caused that? The effect was mercy. Mercy is powerful, and so yeah, let's be people of mercy. Yeah.

Well, Shannon, in the book, of course, you talk about six stories in the Bible, and you're learning from those six stories in the Bible. Is there one of those stories that you identify with most when you reflect on them? Yes, I loved studying the story of Judgey Jonah, Jonah the prophet. He was so it's so filled with contempt for the Ninevites, and we don't really learn that until a little further in the book. At first, in the book of Jonah, you you sense you know every every good story has a tension, and we sense that the tension is well, there is a prophet who needs to obey.

He's fleeing instead of going to Nineveh, and there are people in Nineveh who need to. Repent, and and yet by chapter three, both of those things have happened, and the story continues. And really, what we're getting at in the story of Jonah is the contempt that Jonah has for these people. That's what the Lord is dealing with in Jonah's heart. And man, that's what the Lord was dealing with in my heart as I read this story.

You know, Jonah, he was here is this whole city full of people falling to their knees in repentance, and Jonah is throwing an absolute fit about it. He is so. Filled with contempt for him, and in his heart is like, like we've said, it's like that superiority, that moral superiority and contempt. He's saying, like, I never have, I never would, I never could. I don't want these people to receive your mercy, Lord.

And the Lord response saying, like, Jonah, are you right to be angry? You know, in this in this contempt that you hold, are you right? And yeah, as as I was reflecting, my Ninevites in my life, Gary, aren't quite as evil as those. Ninivites, and yet I can. I'm just surprised at how low my threshold for contempt is.

And as I was writing this book, I was kind of revisiting the relationship I had with my mother-in-law. You know, I had so just. Sealed up that story. She's gone to be with the Lord. She's in heaven.

I I had just written that story in my mind that, you know, the tension in our relationship was all her fault. She was really hard and difficult, and I did the best I could. You know, I was a good daughter-in-law. I did all did it all right. All you know, with my nose slightly turned up.

You see, and as I as I revisited that that just memory of her, I I had this thought like I treated her the way that Jonah treated these Ninevites. I was so, you know, maybe not overtly, but contempt is something that we catch. And oh my goodness, the Lord convicted me in my heart of how easily I can lift myself up and see myself as superior. And yet, like that story that we that we were talking about with Simon and the sinful woman, like our Lord puts us together in the same story with the other sinners, and that's what He does at the end of Jonah. The Lord says.

Should I not have compassion for all of these humans? He uses this word instead of people. He uses human.

So he puts Jonah in the same human race as the Ninevites, and he's like, "Look, I've shown compassion on you. Should I show compassion on them?" And so I was so moved by this story, and just so motivated to not have that contempt. And you know, the Lord was working on my heart the same way as Jonah. Yep, that's powerful.

Well, as we come to the close of our meeting today, let me ask you this question because this this program has to do with relationships, and we're talking about relationships here.

So, what if you have a judgmental spouse who doesn't see that they are judgy, to use your word? Is there anything a spouse can do to help change this situation? Yes.

Yeah, I think. You know, leaning in with that curiosity, like, is there a way that I have offended you? Like, is tell me, you know, tell me more. We can be, we can be so close-minded about even how, you know, what our spouse is thinking and why they're acting this way, and maybe, you know, maybe we have offended them more than we realize. But I think, you know, like I said, it's so natural to feel judged and become judgy.

But what if we could Be like Jesus. Like nobody was more misjudged than Jesus, you know, as he was wrongly judged on that cross, and he prayed, "Father, show them mercy." They don't see. They don't understand. Mercy has this powerful effect in relationships, and so, and and just remember that the most. Merciful being in the universe lives inside you.

If you are a believer, He's living in you. He empowers you, and your command is to be merciful, as your Father in heaven is merciful. And so, if they don't see that they're judgy, is there something you can do? Yeah, I think that having mercy. I think the normal thing would be to feel judged, become judgy.

Feel judge become judgy, like everybody just reacting to one another. I think we can break the cycle with saying, "You know what? I am a sinner just like you. I have received this mercy. It's changed my heart, and I want to pour that out.

I want to use my big, huge gallon size mercy scoop in your life. I want to pour that into your life, and I think that has a powerful effect." Yeah.

Well, Shannon, let me thank you for being on the program today and discussing this topic that's really common to life, but we don't talk that much about it. And also, thank you for your the book. The book's going to help a lot of people with this topic.

So, again, thanks for what you're doing to share scriptures and the meaning of scriptures, and particularly this mercy part of scripture with our audience today. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for this conversation. Our guest has been Shannon Popkin, and our featured resource is "Kinda Judgy: Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible." Find out more at the website buildingrelationships.us. Find out more about her there as well, and her podcast.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, how could the concept of agape love change your relationships? Dr. Winford Neely talks. About a love to live by in one week.

Big thank you to Steve Wake and Janice Backing for their production work today. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.